How many followers would you estimate you have in the United States?

In the United States, approximately a thousand.

When did you become a spiritual master? Did you feel any kind of a spiritual calling that made you decide to become a Guru? How did you get into this?

See, after one Master, the power of his spirit is transmitted. That holy spirit of Knowledge is transmitted to another body, whom the first body thinks is capable. As in many offices.

Suppose I'm an employee. Hmm? And I am to resign. And I am really a very faithful employee. I go to the owner and the owner says, "Well, okay, you want to resign. Now go and find a man like yourself." I go and search for him. In the same way, the Master who has been perfect knows who has to be the next man, who's capable of this, of receiving this authorization. And then, after him, the power is transmitted to him. And he fully agrees with that.

How do you keep up with your studies with all this travel?

See, I came to London when my vacation started. Half of my vacation was spent in India, and half was left. So I went to London. After I went to London, disciples in Los Angeles called me and I came. I came here. On July 15th, my schools opened. So, what to do? I left it. And carried out this purpose. For I was not studying to be an officer in a firm or something like that. I was just studying to be able to speak to people and I am speaking to people. So I left it.

You are Hindu, right? This is the religion that you follow? Could you tell me exactly what your beliefs are?

See, I am not Hindu …

You're not a Hindu?

… and I don't believe in any religion. Because religion limits a man.

Then what are the basic tenets of your belief?

I believe in one true religion which has been talked about by the Holy Masters. Before Christianity there was a religion which Jesus gave to people. That was realization. He gave them some Knowledge through which they realized something. Krishna did the same thing, Ram did the same thing, and so many Masters have done this. They gave something to people: Knowledge. So people believed, "Yes, you are my Lord."

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Now in many places Jesus talks about the Holy Word. He gave this Holy Word to people. And beyond all religion lies this religion.

Actually I'm using the word "religion" because this is what you said before - the word "religion." The word "religion" actually started from the word "realization." "Religion." If man does not realize, he is following a religion … In India, people are reading books. They repeat the whole Gita. What happened was my friend freaked out. And his mother told him to recite the scripture. And my friend said, "Well, what good is it to recite from all the books again?"

His mother slapped him and said, "Yes, there is! Of course."

It is out of books … because before Ram, there were Vedas. A Holy Master had to come. Why did he have to come in this world? To reveal something. Before Christ came, there was the Bible, the Old Testament. Then what was the need for Jesus to come? But he came here to show something practical. Very practical.

So that same practical thing, I am telling people. Same practical thing.

Do you have any political ambitions?

Pardon?

Do you have any political ambitions? Later on in your life, perhaps?

See, these are very different things: spiritual and political. Right?

Hmm … I always thought that as part of India's history, religion and politics were almost one integral part of life …

Well, you see, there is a great difference in this "political religion." Because in politics, people can deceive each other. So many things. But when Ram came … do you know who Ram is? Ram?

No.

He was a saint. He was an avatar, an incarnation of his time. He came and after all, he became a king. The whole Ramayana is about him. He is a king and he doesn't say to people, "This is my order, that you all have to receive the Knowledge that I give." He never says that. He says, "I humbly tell you that there is a sacred Name of God that has been made for you." Not like, "No, this is my order! Don't do that, don't do that, don't do that." In politics, people can deceive each other. One can do many sorts of things. In Ram's politics, everything happens humbly.

Well, you can say there have been many religious leaders, but until there is a man who has known darkness and Light also - you see, you need such a man who has seen Light also. That man will tell you. Seems to be that spiritualism and politics sound the same.

But they aren't. It sounds like they are the same, but they aren't.

Can you explain to us how Knowledge is a natural thing?

Natural?

Yeah.

Do you know what nature is?

Do I know what nature is? Ah, I guess …

Then how will you identify nature?

I think I identify nature … anything that happens by natural laws.

Right. Then suppose something is the source of all nature? What do you call that? Out of nature or in nature? That which created nature, that by which nature is existing, what will you call that?

Source of nature … Creator.

So this Knowledge is the source of all nature. The primordial vibration. What you are seeing now is almost all vibrations. This electricity is a vibration which is being created by the rubbing of two things. Cloth is vibration. I'm a vibration. You are a vibration. Now, that is primordial. That is the source of all nature. Now, how … suppose you identify that the soul of all nature is natural. So, is it natural?

It's … natural …

Whatever exists is nature? And whatever dies is …?

Transformation in nature?

This tree that you are seeing will also die one day. It is also existing. People are existing one day and dying also. So what do you call that? What will die, you call "transformation." What is existing, you call "nature." But when a thing has to pass beyond both these stages, then what do you call that? You are existing now, and you will also die one day. And then what will you be? Hmm?

… Well, the body will still be part of nature …

You see, man cannot think about this Knowledge. It is beyond his mind. So many scientists have been discovering so many things, right? They discovered the center of gravity. Newton discovered the law of gravity. When he discovered the law of gravity was gravity existing?

Yes.

Right. Suppose gravity was not existing. Could he discover the law of gravity?

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No.

Right. There was a time when there was nothing. There was no sun and no darkness. No light and no darkness. No Earth. No sky. No water. Nothing was there. Can you think of that time when there was no sun, no light, and no darkness? Not an evening, because an evening has retained some sunlight. Not darkness either. Can an artist make a picture of that time? Can a man discuss something from that nature?

But this has been in the beginning. Because in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Most ancient. How can you think about it?

There is a huge tree standing before you, and you can see a small plant beside it. Now I ask you, before the seed was sown, what was the form of this tree? Can you tell me? Was there a small plant where this was? Before a plant existed, what was the form of it?

A seed?

Before the seed existed, what was the form of it? I mean, the tree has to come out of some source. Do you believe that it is evolution? But it's not. A theory of evolution conflicts with God the Creator. Because God has created everything and the theory of evolution states, "God didn't create everything." There has been some source of it. And that's this Knowledge.

Cars are here now and you can think about them. But there was a time when there were no cars. Right? How would people be thinking about cars? Same thing here. You cannot think about this Knowledge with your mind. Because this mind is limited.

Could you clarify something that was attributed to you when you first arrived in the United States? It was in Newsweek magazine. You said that someone had asked you if they should call you God and you responded, "I am human - hands, bones, nose. But Guru is greater than God because if you go to Guru, Guru will show you God." Could you explain that a little more for me, please? I don't quite understand what you meant.

There is a huge 100-story building. What is the cost of the building?

It'd be millions.

Suppose there is only one entrance to that. What would be the cost of the entrance?

Not too much. Not like the building.

Yes. But if that door is shut, you cannot enter that huge building. So, this is it. I know God is the Maker. Who will bring it out? Guru.

I see. But it's kind of a strong statement to say, that Guru can be greater than God. You leave yourself open to a lot of criticism when you come to the United States and say something like that.

See, when I say something I explain it. As I have explained it to you. I tell them if you want to understand more about it, come to me and I will give you Knowledge.

How would you teach me Knowledge? If I came to you?

First you come to me with a guileless heart.

With a what?

With a guileless heart. If a man is worthy of receiving it, then I will give it to him. If he is not, I will make him worthy and give it to him.

Jesus Christ, said, "No one comes unto the Father but by me."

In India you would call Jesus Christ a Guru. Teacher. Preacher. The Light.

There is a huge building. Many things are in that building. Until there is a light, you cannot know the mystery of all the things kept there. You know how to operate a plane?

No, I don't.

What is the cost of a plane, a jumbo jet?

Twenty-three million dollars.

But, you don't know how to operate it? What can you do? You'll just sit in it. To use it, you have to operate it. You really have to. If you don't open the door, how will you enter it? You want to use it. You want to sit in it. First you want to enter it but the door is shut. Then the hostess comes and opens it! There is someone to open it. And if that door is closed, how will you enter it?

Now suppose I am talking about driving. They have some beautiful cars and it is really fun to drive them. But if I don't know how to drive?

How can you reveal Knowledge at this young age? How is this possible?

Listen. There is a class and in the ninth class there are seventeen students. Suppose they are about the same age. One comes first: a hundred out of a hundred. One gets zero out of a hundred. One gets forty-five percent out of a hundred. Why is that possible? That is a question of ability and not of age. That is a question of ability. It is not a question of age. If it were a question of age only, then all the boys of the same age must get the same grade.

I understand this point. But what you are talking about is pure intelligence. Performance in class is purely intelligence. But what you have is something different. And I think it's not intelligence. It's some-

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thing divine. Which is …

Exactly. Well, see there have been … you know of Guru Nanak?

Yeah.

Age of Sikhism?

Right.

There have been Gurus my age.

When the soul achieves liberation, and merges with God and has eternal life, does the soul retain its individual consciousness?

What is soul? What is "I"? And what is consciousness? See, you are not "you." Your body belongs to God. The Generator. You are living. You aren't living; you are being inspired to live by the Operator. You are dying. You aren't dying because you are inspired to die by the Destroyer. That's why there are three forms for God. Generator (G), Operator (0), and Destroyer (D). G-O-D, God.

But what I was talking about was liberation, when you don't have to come back. Do you retain -

But, you! You! You are coming? Life is life. Consciousness is consciousness. Soul is soul. You are you. What are you? You can individually believe that you are you. That's why there are so many sufferings. A car is going along and the car stops. It's the car's fault. But if the car is being pulled along and you stop, whose fault is that? That's why it is written in the scriptures to dedicate the life to the Holy Master to guide us, to lead us anew. Because "I" has the mark of pride. "I." "I." Pride is nothing, because we are nothing, actually. I am nothing. Because we are thinking "I." It tries to be away from blood or heat. A man wants to be away from that. But he wants to be "I" and when sufferings come, he will say, "No." He wants to be away from that. This is pride.

I understand that. But I …

Then that is the form of "I." If we all belong to God, isn't God to give you liberation or give you life again? If you think "I," you will receive neither liberation nor devotion.

Well, does it lose its individual consciousness? It loses its "I" …

The individual soul goes and merges with the ocean from whence it has departed. I want to ask you something. Take a glass of water. Take a dropper. Take some water in a dropper. A drop falls. You see a drop fall into the water. Now take the same drop out again. Take the same drop out. Are you listening? Can you understand? Can you take the same drop out? Can you take out the same drop?

No.

These are questions you can answer yourself.

In reincarnation, does the soul alternate reincarnating as male and female, or does it stay one sex for awhile?

What do you mean, incarnations? After you receive liberation, why would you do that? You never come back again. Liberation. When your consciousness goes to the Supreme Consciousness . .

When you are going and merging with this consciousness, what are you? What is that? You lose everything! You lose your senses here. In the graveyard. Mind - your "I" - remains in the graveyard. Sleeping. Will you think by yourself, "Yes. This is that; that is this"? In the graveyard your senses will be resting.

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