Bal Bhagwan Ji aka Satpal Maharaj

To Lift Up Our Lives

This conversation was held between Shri Bal Bhagwan Ji, eldest brother of Guru Maharaj Ji, and a group of middle aged and elderly people, on July 30, 1972 in Denver, Colorado.

Henry: In a marriage there are two intelligences, the male and the female, and the only time they agree is when they sleep together, because the next morning or the next day they are fighting again. And usually the husband suppresses all his wife's intelligence, and they stay together for a long time, but it's nothing more than one suppression after another. Now is that the correct way? Shouldn't the intelligence follow the purpose …

Bal Bhagwan Ji: But that is because the marriage is of the body. If we have a spiritual marriage, a marriage of the spirit, then these problems will not arise.

Henry: Then we don't have to marry by a priest. We are married already …

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, from the spirit. It's just like having one spirit in two bodies. That is real marriage, one spirit in two bodies. No confusion.

Henry: Then you don't possess the other person anymore?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: No, you don't overpower each other. You are both free and at liberty.

Ann: Can a couple have both a spiritual marriage and a body marriage?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, you can have both. If you have bodily marriage, it is not compulsory that there will be a spiritual marriage also. But if you have a spiritual marriage, then it is compulsory that you

have a bodily marriage, then it is automatically induced.

Jim: I want to ask you a question to clarify the matter of marriage. Isn't there a need for civil marriage also?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, after the spiritual marriage, the civil marriage will automatically come also. We will keep all our disciplines, all our laws, and behind them the spiritual marriage will function.

Henry: Now I have a question about death. When a person dies and the person's intelligence needs a body, needs a house, because the house was taken away, he enters a new body, isn't that right? Now the newborn baby has an intelligence already which created the body. So that would make two intelligences in there, wouldn't it?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Now, if we take a scientific view–like there's an object and that object is giving a particular smell. The essence of that object is carried away. Similarly, the subtle body, or the intellect, also is carried away, along with all the sense perception organs. All the receiving organs are carried away, like the scent is carried away. When the scent is carried away, we don't see any gross mass, any concrete things, being carried away. The subtle form is carried away.

Now, if you take a clock and set the alarm at four o'clock, on the next day at four o'clock the alarm will ring. The same thing is true of all the actions we do in this world. Jesus says that wherever your treasure is, your heart will be also, so whatever actions you perform in this world are actually your treasure. All our actions are the treasure, and the sum of the actions we do takes our heart.

Now, that can be scientifically explained as the genetic code. Do you know about the genetic code? It controls all the factors of the genes, heredity, color and different species. Now these are called sanskaras or illusory impressions.

Actually, before the body dies, the soul or vital energy has been limited, it has been imprisoned, it has been made finite by all the illusory impressions. If we take a bottle, an open bottle, there is no cork, then the air inside the bottle is infinite, because the space inside the bottle is connected to the space outside, so it's infinite. But when you close the bottle, that infinite space becomes finite. Similarly, when by ego or by illusion we separate ourselves by the idea "I," like "this is mine," we make ourselves a drop. But when we break our bondage, then that drop merges into the ocean and becomes infinite.

For example, there is a piece of iron in a very raw form. That iron is extracted. It is made into a lump. That lump is taken, and made into a sheet. Then the sheets are made into cars in many different shapes. So that iron is passing through stages of evolution. Similarly, this intellect is passing through stages of evolution. Realizing the origin or the purpose of our life and then meeting the purpose is the ultimate end. And what is life? Life is a series of experiences.


Henry: Can I ask another question? People like dogs so much, but to me it seems very selfish because a dog wants to live his own life. He likes to be fed but he likes to be alone too.

Guru Maharaj Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji Bal Bhagwan Ji: But one thing is, we don't love our fellow men. Instead we love dogs.

Henry: We have dominion over the animals, so we have to take care of them, we have to treat them right, but we are neglecting to take care of our own children.

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, we are following our lower nature, but there is a higher nature. If we place water at a high level, the water automatically will travel toward the lower level. Similarly, in man, the Knowledge from the higher self or higher nature flows to the lower nature and elevates the lower nature, and brings that lower nature to its own level. And this is called spiritual evolution.

Now, if you really see what we are doing in this world, you will simply cry. We love a chair, but not our children, not our blood. We love a big house but we don't love our children whom we ourselves have created. They are our own blood, but we hate them, you see. It's very, very surprising. But when a man goes to the spirit and knows the spirit, then the value of spirit automatically is induced in him and he realizes that he has spirit and others also have spirit. He realizes that we are all one. And then they come together, they sit together, they listen together, they drink together.

Jim: Now, if we don't achieve this perfect Knowledge in this lifetime, will we have the opportunity to pursue, or attempt to achieve this perfect Knowledge in another life?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: See, this is evolution. It's a long process. If you complete it now, the film ends there. If you don't, then the transmigration of soul brings you to the same level next time. Like these people who are now devotees have houses, they have parents, they have mothers, they have fathers, they have cars, but still something in them makes them throw everything away, and they go for Knowledge. There's an inner thirst, inner urge for Knowledge. It's not the body.

Ann: Well, do you teach that they should give up all the worldly things, like cars?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: No, no. If we have one car, then after taking Knowledge we can even have two cars.

Everyone: What?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: If you have one car before taking the Knowledge, then you can have two cars after taking the Knowledge.

Jean: Why do you want two cars?

Bat Bhagwan Ji: Well, you can have two cars if you want. I mean that it doesn't make any difference. See, once there was a rishi, a yogi, who had two wives. One day he said, "Now I am retiring, I have to meditate, so who wants my worldly possessions?" And one wife took the worldly possessions. But the other wife said, "I don't want any money. You are leaving everything because you might get something more than these worldly things. So please give me that greater treasure."

Then he said to his wife, "Actually you think that I love you, but when you die I'll take your body and burn it or put it in a grave. Only when there is spirit inside you do I love you, so in reality I am loving your spirit." And when there is Knowledge of spirit, then love is eternal. It becomes immortal.

For instance, you are sitting here. Try to imagine that you are dead, just think that you are dead. What will happen when you die? Your relatives will come, all the rituals and rites of the churches will be performed, you will be taken to the graveyard, put into your grave, somebody will say, "He was a good man," or "He was a bad man," your virtues and vices will be decided there. Somebody will laugh and somebody will weep. That's natural. Then they will all go away, and what will remain? But if you have a spiritual treasure, or the kingdom of heaven, then you are a wealthy man. That is the real treasure.

Ann: What do you believe concerning heaven? Where do you feel heaven will be?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Well, heaven is a parabolic term. It means spirit. See, Jesus says you should make your treasure, and this is really a very scientific idea, that you should store the treasure where moth or dirt cannot touch it. Now, if you keep it here or in a bank, there's a possibility of moths


Guru Maharaj Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji

eating the treasure. But there's only one place, called spirit, where moth doesn't touch. So the Knowledge of that spirit is the real heaven, that's called the kingdom of heaven. That's the real heaven because that Knowledge had a connection with God.

Jim: Well, if a person married a wife, lost that wife and married another one, which wife will be his when he leaves the flesh and goes to heaven?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: No, no, after death there is no connection of wife and husband. The wife and husband are with the body only. Those words are used for the body, the material aspect. But when the material aspect finishes, the spiritual domain starts. For example, this is the American border and this is the Canadian border. Now you are in America. Then if you simply jump over the line, Canada starts and you have left America. It's like a border line.

This is a room. If you leave this room, you'll enter that room. So when you leave the body, the material aspect, all your material connections, you go to the spiritual domain where there is no wife, no husband. All are children of God, all the world, you see. The same vibration is there, the same vital energy. Just like all these rivers, when they go and merge with the sea.

Jim: Now does this spirit, does my soul go on living in another form, in another being?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, but only because of the illusory impressions called sanskaras. See, I'll tell you one thing. Let's say you have a tree and that tree is your life. That tree is growing certain seeds. Similarly, in this life we are growing certain seeds, seeds for the next life. But by this Knowledge we actually roast our seeds, and when a seed is roasted, will it grow again? No. So that is why I tell you, John the Baptist says, "I am baptising you with water. The man who will come after me will baptize you with Holy Spirit and fire." The fire is to roast the seeds. So if you roast the seeds, then they won't grow again anymore, and that's called salvation. That's called baptism of the Holy Spirit, of the Holy Ghost.

Ann: What of the spirits of those who do not find this Knowledge? Will there be an opposite place for them or do they just die?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: You see, the evolution continues on. They get another opportunity to receive the Knowledge.

Ann: So then no one will really be lost; we will all finally merge with God. But we will have to go through life again and again trying to find this true Knowledge. Would that be what hell is?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, the delay itself is hell. But it is said that the doorway to hell is seen from the gateways of heaven.


The opportunity is there, and not taking the benefit of the opportunity, you go to the negative side. You lose everything else. And then you are actually in hell.

Jim: But for some people that isn't so bad. They're doing what they enjoy doing. They're living like the devil and enjoying it.

Bal Bhagwan Ji: But there are limits to that type of enjoyment.

Jean: When we take Knowledge, and we follow through by doing satsang, meditation and devotion, do the things that we've done wrong automatically leave us? Or do we have to pay somehow for these wrong actions?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: No, everything is burnt out. All the seeds are roasted. You see, this Knowledge is like wheat grains. You sow them; you reap them. That's what you have to do and that's the final aim. The Word in the beginning is the final aim, and we have to concentrate on that Word. So it's the means and it's the end. It is said in the Bible, "If thine eye be single, thy body shall be full of Light." And John was sent to bear witness to that Light. That means there was a man who was sent by God to bear witness of that Light. And what was that Light? That Light was that which lighteth every man. So even we are being lighted by that Light. And that is the final thing.

Henry: Why don't the churches teach that? Don't they know it? They study all their lives to become ministers or priests, but all they usually say is, "Just have faith. You don't have to know the Truth." One thing I know is, if there's a question, there's an answer.

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Oh, yes.

Henry: Otherwise the question wouldn't be there.

Jean: Are the churches holding back from the people? Do they know more than they're giving the people?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: I don't know. If I were a Pope I could tell you the whole secret. But I am not a CIA man, l'm not an intelligence man.

Jim: What is salvation?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Salvation is elevation from manhood to Godhood. Like in science, all the elements give their electrons or take electrons, because they want to be inert. So all the metals give their electrons away, and all the nonmetals take the electrons, just to be stable, just to have 2n2, where n is the number of electrons that fit in the last orbit. They want to be stable; they want to be inert. So our aim is to be inert. Inertness is completion. It is complete, total satisfaction.

Jean: One of the hangups I think many young people have, and I know I've got it too, is thinking that some people are different from me, and I shouldn't have anything to do with them. Now, when you take this Knowledge, can you break that barrier and see people as your brothers and sisters instead of saying, "Well, he isn't my type?"

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes, we invite you to have that experience. Because that's not a lecture, that's an experience.

Ann: What are the experiences that one must undergo?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: See, an experience is not a matter of a speech. You must come and taste it. We invite you.

Ann: Well, how does one have the experience?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: When you go inside, when you follow the right process, when you take the Knowledge, you will automatically experience something. But if we tell you about the experience, then some idea exists, you imagine that "it is like this" and "it is like this," and then you say, "Oh, I understand." But actually our point is not to tell anybody. You must come and experience for your own self.

Ann: Where does one get the Knowledge, then, to have the personal experience?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: He takes it from a Guru. The Guru gives the Knowledge, because from the higher consciousness the Knowledge flows to a lower consciousness. So the Knowledge flows from a Guru who is at a high level, and it comes to us.

Ann: And does one ask for the Knowledge?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Yes. It is said, he who knocks at the door, the door will open for him. He who seeketh shall find. See, so many people are studying the Bible. And my experiences and the experiences written in the Bible are the same, they are not different. But some mistake has been made, because the Bible has been translated and the words are different, you see, and very difficult to understand. Like in Hinduism we have Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. In Christianity we have the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The idea is the same.

Jim: I know that Mahatma Gandhi had a great deal of respect for Jesus. He was always quoting the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount.

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Actually, before reading the Bhagavad Gita he read the Bible, and he was convinced by it. Then he met some westerners and the westerners told him, "There is a book called the Bhagavad Gita,"and then he was very sorry that he hadn't studied everything before. Have you read the Bible?

Jean: Well, I got away from the scriptures. I was raised a Catholic, but when I was 14 years old 1 was no longer interested.

Henry: I don't believe it yet. I want to know. Anyhow, believing is not knowing.

Bal Bhagwan Ji: Very good. I understand.

Ann: But do we come to believe your Knowledge?

Bal Bhagwan Ji: We come to know it. See, by Knowledge I mean more than believing. People believe in this Bible, but they don't know what the Bible is in reality, in truth. Belief and Knowledge are two different things.