Swimming Free's Posts - 2013
As of this being written it is still early in 2013. I plan to maintain updating these posts until Roger posts the Words of Peace International accounting of the 5.5 million dollars he donated unless he keeps making really interesting and informative posts.
- Roger shows Rawat to be even ruder than Donald Trump who met Roger in his living room rather than in his garage.
- Roger introduces a discussion/argument on Rawat's business acumen with a darshan story in which he was dubbed the "Master of Business" by the "Perfect Master" of Knowledge.
- A short discussion of major donors and "elderly cheer leaders".
- A longer than normal post in which he talks about the many concepts the young Rawat and his minions introduced to his young Western premies that were the "bars" that imprisoned them. In fact, these concepts and the methods he used to convince his followers of them were and are not unique to Rawatism. They are really no different in kind to the teachings and methods used by e.g. the Missouri Synod Lutherans.
- He mentions that Michael Dettmers and Mike Donner, two former high-ranking premies, are now involved with another Eastern guru. While this surprised many on the Ex-premie Forum it is standard behaviour amongst members of cults and New Religious Movements to drink nectar from many New Age flowers.
- He refutes an accusation by "Moley", (Moley??) that the Ex-Premie Forum is a hate group. He points out that there is a big difference between criticism and hate.
6th January 2013 - Re: "Peace initiatives" the "thirst" that is required for "Rawat's Peace"
Great posts everyone and a belated Happy New Year. Remember when we were told that we needed a "thirst" for "knowledge" to be prepared to receive it? Well hunger is a desire for food, and it would be a pretty poor restaurant where you had to go sit for months to get hungry before they would serve you. Shit, you would eat anything if you spent too much time at that restaurant. At Rawat's "Restaurant of Thirst Augmentation", aspirants are so deprived of anything intellectually or emotionally meaningful that they are thirsty enough to swallow his drivel and have it pass for "Peace". He is giving people nothing but deprivation to create a "thirst". And this is what he passes off as a "Peace Initiative". Starvation as Fulfillment, a truly Rawatian Concept.
That is a very asture observation Susan. I know of no one other than Mr. Rawat who hosts their guests in their garage. Even Donald Trump invited me and my sales VP Tony T. into his living Room for a sales meeting back in the days of AMP. He even introduced us to his wife, Marla Maples who served us cold drinks.
I would never consider entertaining a guest in my garage. Of course my garage is not on par with Mr. Rawat's as Cynthia noted below, and it is full of all kinds of stuff. Still, I invite my guests into my living room as all of my acquaintances have done with me when I have been invited to their homes, save for Mr. Rawat. I never was invited into his house at any point, not just on this occasion. He always kept his distance.
Many years ago in a meeting with Prem Rawat in the garage at the Malibu "Residence", Mr. Rawat explained to me that he was the "Perfect Master". He went on to say that he was an expert on anything to do with knowledge. He then stated that I was the "Business Master". He said that if we ever worked together, that it would be kching, kching, kching. I was busy running AMP, so that collaboration never happened. He was wrong on both accounts, he is no expert on knowledge, and no longer even refers to himself as the "Perfect Master". In addition, while I was an adaquate businessman, I was in no way a master of business, more a student of it. However,being told that I was a master of business on that occasion by Rawat when I was a premie infused me with false confidence and I deludedly proceeded to become successful in my business in spite of this delusion.
Years later after having sold my business and more or less retired, I was in a meeting with Rawat. He was discussing his various business ideas, and mentioned that none of them had ever become financial successes. He asked me why I thought that was. Being the sycophant that I was at the time, I had to think fast and come up with a reason that was fit for the "Lord of the Universe". I brilliantly pointed out that he was very busy bringing peace to the world and that was so time consuming that it did not leave enough time to take his ideas to fruition in a successful business since that takes a lot of time and effort in order to be successful. I stated that given the situation, it was not surprising that none of his ideas had been successfully commercialized. I could tell that he really liked my take on the situation so I frosted the cake with a comment about loving his idea of his own TV channel, and that I was sure that could be successful, since the world certainly needed peace.
Today, it is a little embarrassing to have to admit that I was at the time feeling very priveleged to be spending time with Rawat, and I treasured his every word and gesture.
I posted this personal account into the record because Rawat's PR minions claim that Rawat has obtained his money from his business prowess, when in a private meeting with me, Rawat himself lamented his total lack of business acumen and success.
Rawat has obtained his money from one source and one source only, donations from his followers.
30th January 2013 - Re: The business acumen of Prem Rawat
Hi Pat. I was never the Gopi type either when I was first ensnared in the cult. I got sucked into that phase years later after years of "Satsang", Mahatma BS, Arti singing, programs, service projects, etc. Lucky you for having missed it.
The main purpose of my post was to refute the cult claims of Rawat's business acumen based upon my first hand conversations with Rawat where he himself sought advice about his many business failures over a long time, from a trusted business confidant, namely me.
3rd February 2013 - Re: Yes I agree, Rawat has excellent business acumen!!!!
I disagree Steve. The fact that someone has amassed a fortune by deceiving others does not mean that they have business acumen. We do not for instance give Bernie Madoff credit for being a great businessman, even though he amassed a personal fortune though he later lost it. We do not give Sadam Hussein or Ghadaffi credit for having great business acumen either even though both of these as well accumulated great wealth.
However, my post was not about whether or not I believe that Rawat has great business acumen, but rather that he himself does not believe that he does in the only arena that he cares about, the non premie world, the world in which he craves respect and has none.
6th February 2013 - Re: Rawat has been very successful in the guru business
"Behind every great fortune is a crime." — Honoré de Balzac
I am familiar with that quote Steve, and I disagree with it. Sometimes behind a great fortune there is a great talent, a great idea, great effort, perseverance, great timing, to name just a few other precursors to great wealth.
No apology necessary Mike. I think that you have it right to a certain extent. There are some major donors who are expected to carry a big part of the load. I only know several of the major American ones. I have heard there are some large major donors elsewhere as well. Should these major donors be lost, Prem's collections would be severely impacted. Of course Prem doesn't want to leave a dollar lying on the table that he could get for himself, so he shamelessly works the entire premie community for every penny he can get for his own use.
By the way I did ask for an accounting of how my money was spent, and received something a month or two ago. I haven't read it yet as I have been very busy with other things, but I think it was a couple financial statements. I will try to make sense of it and give an overview if anyone is interested when I have more time.
By the way, I have enjoyed all the great posts lately, but just haven't had the time or motivation to post any replies. All the best to the regular posters with a special shout out to Lakeshore for some great posts, but there have been many others as well. Roger
21st February 2013 - Upcoming Miami Program. Register Now. Only $150
Just heard today that for a mere $150 premies can attend a 2 day conference in Miami in early March. Promises include breakout discussion sessions. Perhaps if I have time I will call and ask if they want me or any of the ex-premies to "participate". Of course, I would ask that the registration fee be waived for such free thinkers as us who are actually used to participating in real discussions. Perhaps we could be group discussion leaders.
No prison is more tightly secured against escape than the one in which a cult member lives. The bars that keep a cult member imprisoned are constructed of concepts that are driven into the cult member's mind over the years by the cult leader. Rawat himself, (with the help of his family and close associates like Valerio Pascatto and Charananand) created our particular "premie" prison with his countless concept bars which we accepted as our own "experience". How many of us believed in the concept of a "Perfect Master" before Rawat? It is nothing but a big concept. How many of us believed in "Satsang Service and Meditation"? How many of us had heard the word "Premie" and even like being given that name even if it did mean "lover" or so I was told, I don't actually really know even after 40 years. Maybe it actually means "sucker or sh*thead" in Hindi for all I know. How many of us believed in "Agya"? How many of us were looking to move into "Ashrams" or even knew what an ashram was before Rawat? How many of us had ever kissed another persons feet as Rawat had us kiss his? How many of us had ever felt the need to sing love songs to a person we had never met? How many of us thought that Rawat would be there at the time of our death at that last breath as he had promised? How many of us dropped everything we were doing in our lives to follow Rawat's direction time after time? How many of us have parrotted Rawat's excuses for himself being such a materialistic shallow human being while trying futilly to explain to sceptical outsiders why he needs all of his materiallistic excesses? How many of us attended "event" after "event", "fundraiser after fundraiser, all for Rawat's personal use which we knew, and participated in covering up this important fact while we were in the cult. How many of us were sucked into the concept of unreasonably excessive "gratitude" which of course we were encouraged to show Rawat with monetary contributions? All based on Rawat's concepts, concepts, and more concepts of course since he was the only one really allowed to even speak to "premies" for the last couple decades and has always been intimately involved in directing everything in his cult. Of course one must remember Rawat's concepts are the "flowers", the premies' concepts are the "manure" shall we say in Rawat's "garden". …… But wait, I forget, none of these things are important, the only important thing is the peaceful experience the "premies" ie "suckers" are having.
Rawat continuously held and still holds "Events" to reinforce these concepts and whatever new concept has captured his imagination by now and to fleece the flock while he is at it. And these concepts became the bars of our imprisonment in Rawat's cult prison. Years of life in Rawat's cult prison institutionalized us. Going back into society after so many years living in this mental prison is not easy because we were stunted in so many ways by our imprisonment. Getting rid of all the Rawat cult concept baggage is our first job when we escape. Then comes re entry into normal society. It sounds like you are making progress on both counts NewDawn. My hat is off to you. Your escape is no trivial matter and against the odds after such a long involvement. Congratulations. Sounds like re entry into society is coming along. Congratulations again.
I find it interesting and ironic that Rawat is recruiting new members in jail. If he wants to truly do some social service, he should start by releasing his own prisoners and assisting in their re entry back into society.
However, Rawat is unlikely to open the doors to his cult prison and release his cult prisoners since the system brings him and his family so much personal gain. We have to take comfort and joy at the freedom of each valiant escapee.
It is obvious to me now that Rawat is a wolf in sheep's clothing, taking advantage of his flocks' sincerity and cult mind numbing participation induced diminished mental capacity.
In spite of all of this, simply freeing Rawat's remaining prisoners will solve nothing. The most impaired are the ones that still remain in his prison. Each year of institutionalization reduces the chances that any one of his remaining "premies" could make a healthy transition back to society. As forum poster Aunt Bea once stated "Perhaps it is better if some premie stones are left unturned". For this reason, I don't make much effort to undermine Rawat's efforts other than by posting on this forum. Those that come here have a chance at least. The others are pretty deep in the trap. Probably not much anyone can do.
But I might hand out the "Youuuu just might be a cult member" post at the upcoming program in Miami. Just teasing you forum monitors. Or should I? It could be fun. But wait, I think the fishing should be good about that time, and that sounds like more fun. Unless it is too windy………
Yes Kelly, I do know a person who has gone back. In fact, even both Michael Dettmers and Michael Donnor while not going back to Rawat, appear to have joined a very similar new cult a few years back.
I think this underscores how important it is when leaving a cult to do the hard work of self analysis and weeding out the concepts that are still hidden in our subconscious mind after such a long cult involvement. Failure to do this increases the odds that we could make the same mistake again. It is one of the main reasons for my continued involvement in the forum.
3rd March 2013 - Has anybody gone back?
According to his brother, Peter, both of the Mike's are involved with an indian Guru of some sort in Denver. Dettmers is running the finances for his organization. I may have something wrong a bit, since the information was shared over a great meal cooked by Mary, and a bit of wine. Next time I see Peter, I will ask him more about it.
3rd March 2013 - Re: Has anybody gone back? SF, you've GOT to be kidding!!!
Unfortunately, I am pretty sure it is true. It was about a year ago that I heard it, so the details may be off. Next time I see Peter I will ask for the details. As I remember the story, Donner got Dettmers into it.
Actually, it used to be quite common for exing premies to get into other equally crazy cults. I remember at the end of DECA, a group of premies that I knew moved to Seattle to join some cult led by a female. I forget the details, but there were several of them including Marino Amico who at one time had been Rawat's valet I believe.
5th March 2013 - Re: 2 Mikes into S / M? Kinda looks that way….
I think it was Donnor who turned Dettmers on to it.
I think advancing age tends to return people to their religious roots. Fear of the end. Most religions have old people finding newfound fervor when they are facing death. I have to admit that aircraft turbulence brings out the prayer in me.
Moley, where did you come up with the hate thing? I don't sense any hate. There is a big difference between criticism and hate. I am not feeling any hate towards anyone and don't appreciate your suggesting that by participating here that I am hating anybody. I think that people here have been pretty accepting of whatever your choices are. Best of luck to you and Nigel.
15th Marchy 2013 - Re: Any news on Rawat's March 2 & 3 Miami Conf.?
All I have heard so far is that he complained that the US had the worst propagation ratings by his new 1-10 scale of measure. He wasn't going to low rated areas where propagation wasn't happening any more. I guess that leaves out the US if they don't get this propagation thing straightened out. Yea right. He will be back to fleece the faithful. Count on it.