Swimming Free's Posts - 2012

"Swimming Free" is a former devotee of Prem Rawat's whose story is unusual to say the least. One of the things that make him unusual is that in 2010 he donated $5.5 million to Prem Rawat shortly before he realised Rawat was a fake. He didn't quite make the grade as a $6 million man but I call him that to pique readers' curiosity.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch30th December 2011 - Re: A few details…..

Thanks Jasper. Very insightful. Mr. Rawat seems to have specialized in using people and pushing them to the burn out phase. It is not surprising that the local non premie business community in Malibu has such a low opinion of him.

The non premie aviation community has a similarly low opinion of him. He seems to be totally unaware of this, and thinks that because Gulfstream included him in its sales focus group for the G650 launch, that they somehow view him in a very positive light. He doesn't realize that they were just trying to sell him a plane and take his money. They know how he made his money and consider him an obnoxious fraud according to my old sources at Gulfstream. Of course, to his face….. All good salesmen know this routine.

I ran into a couple ex-premies at a recent Christmas party here in Miami who spoke to me at length of their use and abuse at the hands of Mr. Rawat. One was a former instructor and the other the former head of stage construction at venues all over the US including the Kissimee events. They sought me out as they had heard through the grapevine that I had ex-ed, and we had a great discussion. We all agreed that when it comes to Mr. Rawat, never has someone been given so much and accomplished so little.

30th December 2011 - Re: A few details…..

Jasper, after reading your account, I should have named the original thread "The Malibu Mansion- Free premie Money, Labor, and Materials Galore".

31st December 2011 - Other houses

Well, I know of at least one other large mansion, the one on the property outside Delhi. I was there with Teddy T. back in 1980 or 81 when it was being built. I was in charge of building the Holi gun for a big festival there at the time it was being finished, although I would imagine it has been upgraded since then. This house was designed mostly by the DECA staff, and although it was built in India, it also received financial support through DECA I am sure. Sampuranand was in charge of all money for all projects in India at that time and I met with him several times during that visit, including once after an explosion of the boiler in the new house had killed a premie that was stationed nearby. The premie Indian engineer from DECA who refused to allow anyone to check his work because he is a genious, forgot to put in a mechanical pressure relief valve in case of an electrical failure. Of course, he blamed it on a local contractor.

1st January 2012 - Other houses

Hi Kelly, and Happy New Year. The person that you spoke to about the holi gun was not me. After completing that project, I never returned to India. I don't know who it could have been because Teddy T. and I were the only westerners there during the original Holi gun construction. There were a few westerners working on the new mansion, but it was behind schedule, so I never saw them. I was also put in charge of the program stage construction. All we had to build the holi stage and program stages were bricks. The mortar was very poor because it was rationed and Sampu was pulling in extra ration coupons from premies all over India so we could continue. I was able to buy a big log which I took to a sawmill to cut into floor planks and some structural beams. Sampu gave me Deepok as my assistant, the same Deepok who is now in charge of India. There were Indian engineers who assisted me, and a young Indian premie from DECA was there. I trained him to operate the system for future years. It is still working there the last I heard. Building that system in India was one of my biggest challenges of my professional career. The fact that it all came together and worked made my bones with Mr. Rawat. Teddy T. and I had a great time there though. I see from the forum that Teddy has exed. Good for him. I hope he is well. I always enjoyed his company.

1st January 2012 - Other houses

interesting story kelly. There certainly was a water shortage on the Indian festival site in those days. There were 2 wells on site that could pump about 4 gallons/min each when I was there. We had to build a big brick lined storage pit to hold the water for the holi festival. The Indian premies dug this out by hand and lined it with bricks. The gun used 1000 gal/min, so it took days to pump and store the water in the pit that first year. I don't know if the wells were improved or not, but I assume they were. One lingering memory of the month I spent there is of the dysentary that plagued me and also the suffocating dust. I could write a book about that month, but people would think it was fiction.

I saw Sushil and Deepak in Los Angeles this last fall. I don't know Sushil well, but they both seemed in good health. It is indeed a small world. All the best.

1st January 2012 - Re: Where did prem live while rez was under construction?

Actually, I think the old res. was kept while the new one was being built if I remember correctly. I am sure that Jasper must know. Of course, Mr. Rawat always had plenty of residences to spend time at other than the one in Malibu.

Ocker, was your premie friend that worked on the residence AC named Kenny W. ? He was an Australian engineer that I worked with at DECA on a couple AC projects. He was a great person, but unfortunately I have heard that he has developed a debilitating mental health problem.

2nd January 2012 - Bases

And let us all not forget that no matter how many houses Mr. Rawat has, or how big they are, he still needs more. Instead of calling them houses now, they are called bases.

He explained last year in Miami at a private meeting, why he needs these bases to do his work, and yes to save money. And he also needs these bases to avoid the filth that he encounters in hotel rooms. How could we allow him to stay in rooms with dirty mattresses and blood spatter on the walls that he described. It is just so disgusting. How could we even let a dog stay in a place like that. Bases were needed in Miami and Barcelona for sure, and I believe South America too. And we had the privelege of making a monthly donation to support the one in our community. Of course, this was in addition to Pryan(the plane), WOPG, TPRF, cameras, etc.

He did explain how real estate is a good investment. What he didn't mention is how truly great it is when it is given to you and you don't even need to pay for it. He truly is a great investor living off the proceeds of his investment prowess.

4th January 2012 - Re: gridlocked…..

Jasper, I can understand your feelings very well. I too go through a similar struggle sometimes when I post here. Many times I censor myself on my comments, and sometimes I don't reveal the full extent of my knowledge of certain issues. I appreciate JHB's comment to you. All the best to you as you deal with these issues. Believe me, you have contributed a lot. And Happy New Year. All the best, Roger.

10th January 2012 - The Myth of Propagation

In a recent thread, Lakeshore pointed out that the propagation myth is one of the 2 flimsy pillars upon which the cult still stands. I think that this is a very accurate observation. I think this is so important that it deserves a thread of its own. Thinking back to my time as a premie, all fund raising ultimately was tied to propagation.

It is my personal experience that Mr. Rawat continually and consistently tied his requests for support of his private Gulfstream 650 aircraft, his mansions, houses and bases, WOPG, and TPRF to propagation.

And Premies consistently gave and continue to give because of their desire to help with propagation. And as premies continue to financially support propagation, Mr. Rawat continues to prosper.

This is the big scam. Because, in fact there has been and currently is little or no propagation happening. Fewer and fewer premies are attending programs. And let's be honest, Mr. Rawat probably doesn't care so long as the money keeps coming in. Of course propagation would be nice if it brought in more money. But again lets be honest, people don't contribute to speakers to the extent that they contribute to Lords, so new premies aren't likely to contribute much unless he can pull off the old bait and switch one more time.

Mr. Rawat mentioned at a program last year that he expected the 1 millionth premie to receive knowledge in either late 2011 or early 2012. He said that he would then have a big party to celebrate this. I have not heard of the party being announced yet. He continues to throw around big numbers. I had to laugh when I read Ocker's recent post quoting Mr. Rawat back in 1973 that 1974 was going to see 40 or 50 Million new premies. And of course we can't forget that he claimed that he had 4 or 5 million premies already back in the early 70's. Something seems amiss. The revisions downward continue unabated.

Lakeshore, you have obviously given this considerable thought. Perhaps you could elaborate on your earlier post.

11th January 2012 - Re: Propagation is taking off, phase 995, etc…

Aha. What is a revelation to me as a recent ex, is old hat to the long time exes. I still think it is important to discuss the propagation myth though.

I agree Cynthia, only the yacht was truly hidden and not tied to propagation. The rest of the material things I know I accepted, as a premie, as neccessary for propagation. I can hardly believe that I fell for that scam. It is not good for my self esteem to face what an idiot I was.

11th January 2012 - Re: Self-esteem

Tarvuist, from one perspective, that $5.5 million may have been the best money I ever spent. It certainly put the wheels in motion for my ex-ing.

11th January 2012 - Re: Have you asked for an accounting of how your donation is spent?

Joe, with regards to the suit price, [I remember one time in Miami, I heard that Rawat got a new suit for a Guru Puja event and suit cost, in 1970s dollars, $10,000. Expensive, especially since there was so little material involved because, between his drooping gut and his short legs, he probably had a 22" inseam. - Joe] what they saved on the short pants, they obviously compensated for on the jacket girth.

With regards to asking for an accounting as to how my donation was spent, I have not asked yet. I plan to at some point though. The fact that it was almost certainly spent on Rawat and not propagation has an upside in that it means fewer people will receive knowledge and have to deal with all this stuff.

WOPG is a tax deductible charity. My gift was tax deductible. I actually made the donation to the United Way, and they had to clear that WOPG was a certified charity before they distributed the WOPG portion. I assume that they cleared WOPG as a legitimate tax deduction before dispersing the money as that was their responsibility.

11th January 2012 - Re: Why do this through the United Way?

My accountants suggested doing it through the United Way, and since several entities were receiving money, it was fine with me to just do it this way. And yes, the United Way received a cut for doing this.

11th January 2012 - Re: Well if the money is going to Rawat, it's illegal

Yes, Joe, I did. After his plea last year for assistance in supporting his bases, I contributed $1000/month to the Miami base support effort. This was to support propagation as he explained it himself, and to save money on hotel expenses. I stopped that as I was going through my ex-ing process last fall. I suppose you could also count my years of service for little or no money at DECA in this category as well, although we (meaning most of us at DECA) were still in the fantasy that everything was for propagation.

11th January 2012 - Re: Your speculation is spot on.

Prior to exing a few months ago, Raja Ji told me a brief version of the story as follows over a cup of coffee at his condo.

Bhole Ji invested in a struggling company several years ago. They were able to convince a gas station chain with convenience stores to stock the product. Truck drivers liked it and it took off from there. They are not involved operationally. They are just investors.

On another note, I heard years ago that Bhole Ji had married a rich woman. This may be the source of his original investment money.

11th January 2012 - Re: Your speculation is spot on.

Hi Bill. I have not mentioned it before, but the final drip for me was hearing from a very reliable source that Mr. Rawat had been involved sexually with Raja Ji's wife, Claudia. I heard that it was after the divorce, but even so, I could not imagine the depravity of sleeping with a brother's wife or ex-wife. It was the last straw. Now that you have confirmed that rumor, I am aghast all over again. Is there no limit to his depravity?

11th January 2012 - Re: Monica-who is she, what's her game?

I have never met or seen Monica that I recall. I never heard about her until I read about her in the forum. I don't think that the rank and file premies know or suspect anything about her. I am trying hard to remember seeing a pretty blond in major donor meetings or in the front row area at programs, and I am drawing a blank. Of course, maybe she is not as pretty as she used to be. We are all getting older.

11th January 2012 - Re: The perfect complement to Knowledge

We may be missing something here. Perhaps SatPal has actually taught his Indian devotees to produce nectar which they are spitting into big vats and producing an Indian type of moonshine that Bhole Ji ferments and is peddling to the masses in the west. The number of SatPal devotees and 5 hr. energy drink users are reportedly mysteriously similar. Coincidence???

If it were a public stock, which it isn't, I would sell the stock at this point since future market expansion could be tied to either increased propagation by SatPal or increased nectar production by the SatPal devotees, both very dicey prospects.

Considering the above, I am very glad that I never tried the product.

12th January 2012 - Re: nectar or …

However there is one type of fluid, always available, highly flavoured, containing many complex human byproducts and that is easily collected and according to Ayuraveda is extremely beneficial to drink …

Oker, I do believe you have it pegged. I must remove my sell recommendation on the 5 hr drink stock immediately.

24th January 2012 - Re: Does Prem "Give Me Shelter?"

We were probably safer with the wolves Karen.

By the way, since I live in Miami I have gotten a little feedback on the Sunday program here in Miami. One fence sitter friend who is aware of Mr. Rawat's drinking problem noted that he appeared drunk when he came out on stage and maybe had only a couple minutes of his whole speil that were inspiring toward the end when maybe he was sobering up a little. She said she couldn't hear a lot of what he was saying because he would go into that corny low whisper that he uses when he thinks he is saying something profound.

Another long time friend and local premie stalwart remarked at lunch today that he was very proud of the new awards that Mr. Rawat had been given by some world leaders. Apparantly this crap was shown at the event. I informed him as any good manmut would, that these were mostly staged events. I remember reading someone's recent analysis of these awards on a recent thread. It was stated that this was just propaganda for the die hard premies and not for the public who would see through the BS. Obviously, the analysis was correct.

This was my first program in Miami since ex-ing. I was surprised at how glad I was to be enjoying the beautiful day here and missing the propaganda though it would have been nice to see some old friends. My time in the cult felt like eons ago.

I expected a few out of town premie friends to call when they came to town. None did. I suppose they didn't want to ruin their buzz by acknowledging a self professed manmut.

24th January 2012 - Re: That corny low whisper!

Thanks for the support Leslie. I have always had a lot of non premie friends, so I still have those and a few of my closest long term premie friends and I have my family, so I am doing OK.

25th January 2012 - Re: other crapola

No it wasn't Guy. I haven't seen Guy in ages. What a nice person he was. I saw a post of his in the archives. It seems that he must have escaped. Good for him.

27th January 2012 - Re: Jasper, do you know of other alcohol incidents?

Hi Protoss. Well, anything is possible like maybe a one in a trillion chance. It is possible that my cat is actually the real "Perfect Master", although I don't think he is, even though he is just as arrogant and demanding as Mr Rawat at times. I would put my cat at about even odds with Mr. Rawat. Lakeshore's bird can speak, so I would put his bird's chances even above my cat's. My cat is actually very conscious about taking care of himself. He refuses to eat anything unhealthy, keeps himself clean, gets plenty of rest, seldom exhibits loss of self control, and has no bad habits of which I am aware other than licking his own butt occasionally.

In retrospect, I think it is much more likely that my cat is the real "Perfect Master", if such a beast does now or ever has existed, as compared to the chances of Mr. Rawat being one.

Humor aside, it is very inconsistent for a so called and self professed "master" to exhibit such lack of personal control in so many areas of his life, not just alcohol abuse, while hiding his character flaws from his followers and the public.

I mean if a "master" really wanted to help people, you would think he would make some sincere effort to stay sober at least during his very infrequent speaking events.

I for one, no longer want to apologize for, or try to justify Mr Rawat's behavior. I did it for way too many years. We expect more from our leaders, if not our Lords, than this type of dishonest hypocritical behavior. Why should Rawat get a pass. And showing up to work drunk or under the influence of alcohol is disrespectful of his followers. If in fact he was, as was reported to be suspected by at least 2 sources from his last program, I would say it would be akin to the president of the US showing up drunk for the state of the union address.

Do you think that would be appropriate Protoss?

I hope that someday you will be able to pursue life without Mr. Rawat. I understand your position and wish you the best. The fact that you are reading and posting here is a good start.

27th January 2012 - Re: Jasper, do you know of other alcohol incidents?

Unfortunately Protoss, I do know many things that you do not know. It led to bitter disappointment that I wish on no one.

I was, like you, blissfully ignorant for way too long. I no longer am. Being here in this forum is very dangerous to you maintaining your current viewpoint. It is very painful to face the truth. Good luck in your journey.

28th January 2012 - Re: Jasper, do you know of other alcohol incidents?

I too still enjoy the meditation Protoss although I no longer put my fingers in my ears or use the physical light technique.That part of my life is the same as it was when I was a so called premie.

However, I have let go of the concept that it is the meditation of Mr. Rawat. It is a very old set of techniques taught in various formats by many people for many centuries, as you can verify by independent research. Mr. Rawat just claimed it for himself, so that he could make some money off of it. Not only is he a failure as a meditation teacher, but he is not a humanitarian either as he claims. A true humanitarian would serve the people instead of the people serving him. He wouldn't do any humanitarian activities if it didn't help him make money. He doesn't contribute any of his own money (to my knowledge) to his own foundation. It is all raised by and from his followers. He just takes credit for it and poses as a humanitarian leader.

Protoss, we were told that we needed to let go of our concepts, but what happened was that Mr. Rawat replaced them with his very own concepts. Tons and tons of them. What are the keys but listening to tons and tons of his concepts. They have nothing to do with meditation. They just tie us to him so he can milk us like a herd of docile cows to feed his insatiable material thirsts. And for this we are supposed to feel unending gratitude.

Enjoy your experience of life Protoss. It is yours and has been since your birth. Your Mother and Father had something to do with this but not Mr. Rawat. Someday the reality of Mr. Rawat's hypocricy may break through your programming and you will be able to be critical of Mr. Rawat and take that first step towards reclaiming your life. Good luck.

30th January 2012 - Re: New Journey on ex-premie.org - Roger Koch

Thanks for your kind words Pat. You also make several good points in your analysis of my journey. The obsession of the entire Rawat family with material possesions is interesting indeed. I think it dates back to Mata Ji, but maybe Shri Hans was similarly flawed.

Even Charanand is becoming materialistic in his old age. Before I ex-ed, I played golf with him and ate dinner with him on several occasions. He encouraged me to get a nicer car (I drive a Toyota Tundra pickup which I love, the farmer in me coming out). He wanted me to drive him around in something nicer. He was very self conscious of these things. He also encouraged me to get a nicer house if I could afford it, which he knew that I could.

I remember leaving a major donor conference in Miami at a hotel and waiting outside for the valet to bring my car. There were several nice sports cars outside, and Sean Brogan took me over to them and started explaining each one to me. I didn't know one from the other and had no such interest. Now I see that he was emulating Mr. Rawat. Anyway, he looked shocked when the valet brought up my Toyota Tundra. I think that there is a lot of this overt materialistic display not just in the Rawat family, but in the PAM community as well. At least the ones that I know.

Although this materialism bothers me, the serial sexual conquests of his followers bothers me more. I am very sensitive to this issue, because after serving many years as a company president, the issue of sexual harassment was something that I placed particularly heavy emphasis on preventing. When Mr. Rawat seduced his female followers, he was committing an extreme form of sexual harassment. It is a wonder that he was never sued. He obviously was not given sexual favors by his followers because of his innate physical attractiveness and sexuality. I doubt that he ever had any sex in his life with a non premie unless he paid for it. This extreme form of abuse of the trust placed in him by his followers sickens me still.

30th January 2012 - Re: Re:' Sarkis Soghanalian - reputed weapons dealer' surely you meant 'ill-reputed'

Yes Pat, "ill-reputed" and self confessed arms dealer would have been more accurate.

He did not socialize with any of the Rawat family to my knowledge. This was in 82 or 83 after the 707 and in the business phase of DECA. He had offices and a hangar facility at the time of DECA right off 36th street, and was a friend of then MIA airport manager Dick Judy. I think Mr. Judy introduced him to the DECA sales staff. He was indeed short and fat like Mr. Rawat and also a serious alcoholic as well. Chivas Regal was his drink of choice. He was a mean drunk. He was to be avoided when he was drinking. He usually drank only after 5, but if he started early, look out!!!

His recent demise was covered in the local Miami press. It brought up all those memories or I probably would not have bothered to mention him in my journey.

30th January 2012 - Re: Wonderful!

Cynthia, we must have met. I just haven't been able to put the name together with a face. I knew Sam R. well from Chicago. I also remember Neil S., Claude, Mauricio C., Bob L., Bob H., Bob N., all from the D and E staff. Anyway all the best Cynthia, and thanks for all your posts in the forum archives. Roger

30th January 2012 - Re: What a journey!

I bet we did cross paths Bob because I was in K.C. at that time, and went to satsang (without delay) every night. Glad you enjoyed the journey. Yes, what a long strange trip it has been indeed.

30th January 2012 - Re: New Journey on ex-premie.org - Roger Koch

Glad you found the journey helpful quirky. I really appreciate your comment about how it is not easy to decide which details of an over 30 year involvement are significant. In my case it was almost 40 years and nearly all of my adult life. I look forward to reading your new journey addition some day. All the best, Roger.

30th January 2012 - Re: New Journey on ex-premie.org - Roger Koch

Hi Lesley. Well as I stated, the trip to Iraq was really a kidnapping since I was led to believe that I was going to Europe for a brief trip to repair a Cessna Citation. I do believe that the DECA management believed the same thing, but they should not have sent me without a passport. Mine had expired at the time. The stewardess was a pretty Cuban non premie named Sarah and had no idea where she was going and was as freaked out as me when we ended up in Iraq in a war zone.

As Lakeshore said, "what a long strange trip it's been"

30th January 2012 - Re: Iowa, Iowa City, Chicago, DECA, MIami and the late 70s.

Hi Joe. I do remember you from Chicago, and I believe Davenport as well. Do you remember my good friends Rob and Connie H. from Muscatine? Iowa City, Davenport, and Muscatine premies sometimes all got together. When I received K in Iowa City, the P's I remember most were all living in a very run down house a few blocks from the Mayflower. One of them, a beautiful Chinese American named Marylyn P. eventually married Chicago Premie David W. I lived with David and Marilyn on the north side when I first moved to Chicago. After that I moved to a premie house only a couple blocks from Chase St., but I forget the name of the street. I lived there with Curt H., Don N., and Flip M. for the rest of my time in Chicago. I was co-aspirant coordinator with Linda S. for much of the time I was there. I worked at IITRI on the south side of Chicago as an engineer. I remember the Rainbow Groceries stores well as I do many of the people who worked there including the Mcfarlane's and Joe M, brother of Michelle M. Joe and Michelle were 2 very beautiful people whose company I thoroughly enjoyed.

I am trying to remember Denny Rolling, but am drawing a blank. Sorry to hear about your loss. I was in the Iowa City premie scene from Nov. 72- May 72, and then from Aug 75- Dec 77. Debbie F. was community coordinator in the later period. She is a very beautiful person.

Joe, you are obviously not alone in your negative view of the time you spent at DECA. Working directly for Jim H. probably contributed greatly to that. My experience was a mixture of good and bad that I haven't sorted out completely yet. I met some lifelong friends there and enjoyed working with them. I enjoyed the creativity of many of the people working there. Most P's give credit for this creativity to Mr. Rawat. I do not. He actually usually gets in the way of actually getting anything done right. I think that this is partially due to his lack of education and his disrespect for the education that others have obtained.

I am glad that you escaped Joe. You have written some very very good posts over the years. I hope you continue to post on the forum for a long time. Respect: Roger

31st January 2012 - Re: Jasper…

I pretty much agree with your entire post Mike, and hope that Jasper sees it. I have gone through the same process as you and have come to pretty much the same conclusion. All the best Mike, and I still do intend to get to your book soon. For some reason, I have developed a bad habit of putting off until tomorrow what I could do today.

31st January 2012 - Re: thank you

Glad you enjoyed it Susan. By the way I forgot to mention that at the end of DECA, a bunch of cabinet makers went with the partially complete DC-8 to Tracor in Santa Barbara where I believe I recall you mentioning in a post in the archives, that you went with your cabinet maker premie husband. I remember a Dave P. with a wife named Susan. I visited them in Santa Barbara and had a wonderful time with them trying abalone for the first time at a local restaurant. Could that have been you?

31st January 2012 - Re: Little puzzled by the CEO comment

Thanks for the comments Hamzen. First let me address the baseball issue. I remember having a passion for baseball since my youth. I loved to play it, listen to it on the radio, watch it on TV, and see it in person. Many of my family members share or have shared the same passion and passed it on to me, and I passed it on to one of my sons who became a very good left handed pitcher, first baseman, and hitter up through the high school level (pretty much same as me but I was a right handed power hitting outfeilder). You have picked a great swing (Nelson Cruz) to study and create artwork based upon.

Second, my first focus was always meditation. Second was service, and third Satsang. Meditation was a consistent practice for me the entire time that I was a premie. The DECA phase was the height of my service career, it tailed off somewhat after that and my service involvement at the end was solely financial. After DECA, I was seldom involved in local programs or satsang. I only attended US programs after this time, and even missed some for work related conflicts. I may have been drifting here somewhat in retrospect. I still did service projects occasionally for Mr. Rawat.

I am still digesting my last 30 years and after more thought, I intend to make another post addressing the issues that you and others have brought up. I do not fully understand several issues about my long term involvement, especially the blind spot related to Mr. Rawat, that I maintained for so long. I don't know if I will ever fully understand the psychology of it, but I will give it a try. This blind spot is not unique to me. I know numerous currently very successful premies that still have it. It is the key to Mr. Rawat's current financial base. If this blind spot was able to be understood and broken en masse, his empire would collapse.

31st January 2012 - Re:baseball and other things

First to baseball questions: I think that amateur baseball never took off in America after the 50's for the following reasons:

It takes a large playing area, and fields of that size were too expensive to acquire and operate in big population areas. Softball reduced the field size and became a popular substitute.

It is very hard to hit a baseball. Good pitchers dominate the game. This is especially true at the amateur level. This also led to softball evolving from fast pitch to slow pitch in most amateur softball leagues. I played fast and then slow pitch softball as I got older. We even had an AMP team that competed in slow pitch softball here in Miami for several years. That was post DECA and a lot of fun.

A thrown or hit baseball is dangerous. Also arm injuries in pitchers are routine. Injuries in pastimes lead to lost income that most young men can't afford.

Just my opinions.

Re the CEO comment, I always blamed the people around Mr. Rawat for the bad management. He himself credited them with all the failures. I never used that logic anywhere else in my life though. Once you accept the LOTU concept which I did, criticism is not easy, even in the privacy of one's own mind. A friend recently gave me this book called "Rapt". I have just started reading it. I think there are some good ideas in this book about just this topic. I will let you know when I finish it, and see if it fulfills its early promise. It talks about how there is so much more information available than what we can process, and how our experience of life is determined by the small subset of that information on which we choose to focus. Right now, I would have to say that I just chose to focus on things other than Mr. Rawat's very obvious shortcomings. If I can't get this one figured out, I may go get some counselling from a professional to help me because it is important to me too.

All the best Hamzen. Roger

31st January 2012 - Re: Great journey and many thanks!

Jasper, thanks for the kind words. As far as my memory with names, I am afraid that I have forgotten many as well. I always enjoy your posts. Your post about the drunken master exiting the plane is one of the best ever. I am sure we do share many common elements to our journeys. As an aside, my son is doing quite well at this point and has not required hospitalization for almost 2 years. He lives with me now, and we take it one day at a time, but he hopes to go back to college this fall and complete his education. I have much love and respect for him and others living and coping with this problem. Good luck to you and you child. Roger

1st February 2012 - Re: Part II

Hi Lakeshore, I too, hope that someday you will post your journey. Even though you have many great posts in the archives, I feel a journey is special because it is easier for a new reader to access and relate to.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch2nd February 2012 - Re: Part II

Hi Lesley. Remembering that I actually kissed Mr. Rawat's feet is the second most sickening thing to me now about my whole involvement.

I have an adult son whom I used to occasionally drag along to programs when he was a child. When he grew up, he became very anti Maharaj Ji and understandably so. His greatest fear is that he ever kissed Mr. Rawat's feet as a child. Since he doesn't read here the disgusting truth will remain hidden to him forever. I am even more sickened by the fact that I exposed him to this disgusting display of Mr. Rawat's egomania and my own monumental stupidity.

2nd February 2012 - Re: Prem Rawat's sewer

And remember Lakeshore, when I fell into that sewer, I was walking toward the light, or at least a light.

4th February 2012 - Re: Hope for many more!

Thanks for posting your journey Jasper. It is very well written and clearly shows the incredible devotion and effort that you made to practice what you were led to believe to be the ultimate path and destination. I can relate to it very well. All the best Jasper. Roger

5th February 2012 - Re: SF, sounds like you're "thinking free" as well

Hi la-ex. Yes I am having a great time for the most part, including many "peak experiences". I am however struggling in my golf game and this is puzzling me.

I still meditate and have a good experience there as well without Rawat. I feel like I am going through a healing process, and it is going well. All the best, Roger.

5th February 2012 - Re: That Gives Me A Great Idea

Great idea ocker. I hope you do this and post your accumulated results. I wonder if any other inspirational speakers have children kiss their feet.

5th February 2012 - Re: Divide and Conquer --- Selling 'inner peace' but delivering existential war

Glad you enjoyed the post cq. Your comments and attached clip are a great addition to the thread. Your clip includes a very appropriate quote about that ultimate goal of every entity that ever started a war, "surrender". Rawat's goal was for every one of his students to surrender to their "heart" and its "master, ruler, etc.", himself. And of course he clearly defined the enemy, our own minds. It is there to be read in his own words for posterity. No wonder he wanted all that stuff burned.

17th February 2012 - Re: Mitch and his fanatical master….

Poor Mitch. I never knew him personally but have read his articles as a premie over the years, and always thought they were a little over the top. I never understood how he won approval to express himself publicly, while almost all of the rest of us were just supposed to keep our mouths shut. Now, I am thankful that there is no public record (to my knowledge) of the drivel that I myself undoubtedly spouted as a premie. Thank goodness for the relief of no longer having to be an apologist for Mr. Rawat's behavior, or my own for that matter.

I have to admit that at the end of my premie career, I avoided introducing any new people to Mr. Rawat. I couldn't verbalize why at the time, but now I know that it was embarassment. I was happy to just contribute money for media based propagation instead and avoid any personal propagation activities, even though I was continually encouraged to bring my wealthy and politically powerful friends to events and golf tournaments. You have to admire Mitch for his courage to make a complete and utter fool of himself much like the Iraqi Information Minister (Baghdad Bob) during the fall of Baghdad. Mitch is indeed a premie who has made great sacrifice for Mr. Rawat, especially the sacrifice of his integrity to be a party to Mr. Rawat's revisionism. If Mitch makes it out, he will need a lot of support to make it through the embarassment of reading his own drivel from a new perspective. I wish him the best.

18th February 2012 - Why did it take so long for me to leave Mr. Rawat's cult?

I just finished reading Mike Finch's book "Without the Guru" yesterday. First let me say that I enjoyed the book. I think that it represents an incredible journey entry. Mike asked this question in his book, and offered some of his thoughts on the subject. This question also appears from time to time in the threads of this forum, and I have to say that I have spent countless hours in the privacy of my own mind pondering this subject.

I have developed a few thoughts on the subject, and have decided to post them.

The first factor that contributed to my long stay in the cult is my optimistic nature. Thinking back, I don't think that I met many pessimistic people in the cult. Optimism is a great attribute to possess according to articles that I have read on the subject, even though the optimistic outcomes we envision often are unrealistic. I think it was a Time Magazine article that I read last year on some airplane flight to somewhere, that discussed optimism as a natural selection strategy. Examples of optimism included people expecting that their lives are going to last longer than statistics would indicate, that their marriages were more likely to last than statistics readily available would indicate, etc.

Along this line, I think that I was more optimistic that Mr. Rawat was going to bring peace to the world, enlighten me and others, propagation was going to take off, that I was ultimately going to cross the threshold of death into a state of eternal bliss, etc. than was warranted based on his actual performance statistics. I always thought that things were going to get better. Mr. Rawat fed this expectation too by constantly promising to change and improve things. Therefore, I think optimism was a factor that played a key role in my staying in the cult for so long. By the way, since leaving the cult, I think I am now a slightly more pessimistic person, but not much really. I am very pessimistic however about Mr. Rawat and his ilk of "leaders".

The second factor that I have been considering is the nature of momentum. Basically this law of physics states that "what is in motion tends to stay in motion". Once something is in motion, it continues on its journey effortlessly and requires an outside force to change its speed or direction. Once we were in the cult and had committed to it for years, it required an outside force to change our involvement. We were incapable of changing our speed or direction ourselves. The outside force of "friction" of the "Maya" was constantly acting to slow us down, and we countered this with getting recharged in meditation and at programs. As long as we got these 2 boosts we continued along pretty much on track. If we slowed down on these recharging activities, we risked slowing down and entering the drifting stage. In the drifting stage we were much more at risk of actually changing directions and leaving the cult. I think drifting prior to a full break is how most people end up leaving the cult. This is not however, how I left the cult. In my case, I experienced a rapid series of unexpected blows that shook my premie world in a relatively short time frame. My momentum was suddenly and dizzyingly changed by revelations and realizations of Mr. Rawat's seriously flawed nature. Much of this came from reading ex-premie.org, and the posts in this forum. Suddenly, I could no longer in good conscience accept Mr. Rawat in any way as my leader, God or not. It was morally necessary for me to renounce him based upon his own words and actions. So painfully, I did. I say painfully, because at that time, in my heart, he was still dear to me. I was just experiencing severe dissappointment in him and his behavior. Fortunately for me, this feeling of closeness to Mr. Rawat has receeded gradually over time. Even now though, months later, I would be lying to say that it is totally gone.

The third factor is the financial saying of "paper profits, paper losses". You don't take a real loss until you actually sell a bad investment. Selling a bad investment is very difficult for most people to do because it entails an admission of a mistake that once you sell, there is zero chance of that investment coming back for you. In today's premie's world, this investment involves decades of a premie's investment of personal sacrifice, affection, time and money in Mr. Rawat and "knowledge". It is a big loss to take and admit in one's "life experiences" portfolio. Even so, it is best to take the loss, write it off, and get on with one's life.

This is in no way intended to be a comprehensive list of all factors involved in staying in the cult for so long, just a few of my recent thoughts on the subject. I am sure others have other thoughts on this subject as well.

18th February 2012 - Re: Because you are unusually susceptible to suggestion?

There is a simple answer imo. Probably all premies and expremies share two (probably related) psychological qualities …highly suggestible and highly imaginative

Interesting comment. I know that I am highly imaginative. That I may be unusually susceptible to suggestion is interesting. I have never been hypnotized to my knowledge, but then as the gentleman in the 5 min. clip you attached mentioned, it is a technique used by cult leaders so who knows.

18th February 2012 - Re: Because you are unusually susceptible to suggestion?

I think the experience of focussing hard and listening to Rawat was akin to being in a hypnotic trance. that's my suggestion anyway. But, of course, if you believe me then it sort of proves the point

You may be right, because I can imagine your suggestion being true.

18th February 2012 - re: speaking of the program in Miami

Does anyone here know if Ted Farkel attended that event in Miami or the one in Long Beach? I would love to hear him participate in the expressions.

These expressions were usually disturbing but could sometimes be hilarious like the occasion of the 2 Dennis Murphy's, one who had just died, and the other a friend of mine (who I was shocked to hear had just died from a lady praising him during her expression). As she was going on, "Miami Dennis" was now standing up in the balcony at the back of the audience shouting without a microphone to proclaim his existence. Prior to this, Mr. Rawat was shocked to hear of Dennis's reported demise. He too assumed it was "Miami Dennis Murphy" who had been his cook at one time. We then discovered that it was another Dennis Murphy.

This should have raised a red flag at the time since the departed Dennis Murphy's death was not funny to his friends or family I am sure. Mr. Rawat's responses to the situation seemed to indicate that in his confusion, he failed to be there with the departed Dennis Murphy at his last breath.

2nd March 2012 - Re: The two-part process of leaving Rawat

I finished reading your book a couple weeks ago. I enjoyed it. Thanks for making the effort to write it Mike. I am sure it will be helpful to many for years to come. Roger

3rd March 2012 - "Spiritual" experience as a function of mood psychology and brain chemistry

Although I am not a trained medical professional, psychologist, nuerochemist, etc., I have, through my involvement as a primary caretaker for a much loved family member, namely my son, learned very much about the nature of mood based psychological disorders, and by extension, the effect of mood on "normal" human function as well.

I have read exhaustively on the subject, engaged numerous psychiatrists and psychologists involved in treatment and research of mood disorders in conversation, and am funding and participating as an advisor in ground breaking research in this area at a major US university.

Furthermore, my background in science and engineering has honed my observation and analysis skills somewhat once I focus in on a topic.

I offer these credentials and bring up this subject on this forum because I think that the search for inner peace, the practice of meditation, and the "premies'" continuing search for "that feeling" is very much related to the very pervasive human activity of attempting to self modulate our own individual moods. We may be willing to make great sacrifices of logic, ethics, and sanity to do this at times. When an individual is depressed, these sacrifices seem small prices to pay indeed.

How many lives have been lost to cigarettes,drugs, or alcohol, which are other methods by which self modulation of mood is attempted? Logical arguments seldom work when trying to help these people. They may know that what they are doing is harmful, but they are not willing to give up their mood altering activities. This is especially true for those suffering from mood disorders. They are several times more likely to use cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol than the normal population. I learned this at a symposium on bipolar disorder presented at the U of Miami a couple years ago.

It usually takes a major blow to motivate a person addicted to a mood altering behavior to change their lifestyle. I still practice meditation for just this reason, but I no longer associate it with Mr. Rawat. This is an easier path for me. It would have been much more difficult for me to leave Mr. Rawat's boat if I had felt that I had to give up the practice of meditation as well. Meditation continues to function for me as an effective mood altering activity. There are those that denigrate the practice of meditation, but I do not.

I do, however, think the role of meditation as a mood altering behavior contributes to the difficulty of premies leaving the cult.

I find my mood to be very important to my enjoyment of life, and I am constantly doing things to put myself in an enjoyable mood, including meditation, sleep, eating or not eating certain foods, exercising or not exercising as the case may be, working from time to time, having a cocktail, listening to music, engaging in friendships and relationships, stimulating my mind with reading or conversation etc.,. I think this is probably very similar for most other people. I think finding healthy ways to self modulate our moods and keep them in an acceptable region on the manic-depressive scale is an important skill to develop in our lives.

However, I think "premies" tend to rely excessively on meditation and events with Mr. Rawat to modulate their moods. They have memories of this having been successful in the past and so they keep repeating these behaviors trying to recapture remembered "bliss", often to the exclusion of other possible mood altering behaviors that might be equally or more effective without harmful side effects. But "bliss" only exists at the extreme of the mania side of the manic depressive scale, just short of and continuing on into psychosis. Sometimes premies find the bliss, and sometimes they do not. That is because there are other constantly changing factors that also effect the brain chemistry of our mood beside meditation and group mood dynamics. If premies start the process too close to the depression side of the scale, these activities will not get them all the way to "bliss".

Things like sleep deprivation (which can trigger manic psychotic episodes in bipolar individuals), caffiene, fevers, diet, lack of or excess of light of certain frequencies, drugs, etc. and of course life circumstances can all contribute to the mood that we find ourselves in.

One thing I have learned though, is that "bliss" is on the manic end of the mood spectrum. It feels good, but a person feeling "bliss" is not very functional. I remember years ago having trouble finding my car many times after particularly "blissful experiences".

Most of us have a normal range of moods in the middle of the manic depressive scale. Our moods vary within a mid range based upon our circumstances and environment. We may make forays into the depressive end of the spectrum when very sad events happen in our lives, but we do not get depressed for no reason at all, and we recover from our sadness inspired depression in a period of weeks, months, or maybe a couple years. Similarly we may have feelings of elation at circumstances in our life that we may posssibly identify as "bliss", but again, these do not happen for no reason at all, as they do in bipolar disorder sufferers.

People with mood disorders possess brain chemistry and physical symptoms for extended times beyond the mid-range into the extremes of depression or mania, or cycle between the extremes as in one form of bipolar disorder.

In a severe bipolar manic episode, the mania leads to a psychosis that is hard to distinguish from a severe schizophrenic episode. The individual actually sees and hears things that are not there. They are awake, but are very much in a dream state where their reality is not dependent on laws of man or nature. When the psychosis is over, they do not remember their behavior or much of anything from the time in the psychosis, again, much like in a dream. In this state, spiritual experiences are very common.

For example, my son believed he was the Dalai Lama and acted accordingly during his first psychotic episode. He even converted all but one of the other patients in the hospital mental unit (but none of the staff). The lone patient holdout really perturbed him, but the staff's lack of conversion didn't bother him at all.

He then added his own twist to the Dalai Lama doctrine by introducing his disciples to the simplicity of nudity. He was then segregated from his new disciples whose family members did not like their loved ones new religious practices. The staff bitched to me about the trouble this caused them: that and his escape from the unit and his subsequent recapture, which caused them to have to write 70 new pages of security protocol. I reminded them that he was psychotic and their anger was misplaced and that they should focus on his care.

At the beginning of my son's second manic psychosis that ultimately led to his second hospital stay, he took on the identity of Bob Marley and particularly enjoyed listening to music by Ziggy Marley, whom he said that he had never heard play before and whom he referred to as his son. He also was able to beautifully whistle any song in perfect tune and pitch after hearing it, a skill that once the pychosis had passed, that he no longer possessed. Again note the "left brain" art/spiritual side expressed during the manic mood phase.

I have consistently observed this in other patients as well during visits with my son during his hospitalizations. One individual in particular that I remember fondly was "Gandalf the Grey", an elderly black man dressed in a bedsheet robe who possessed an incredible rap music talent in addition to his wizardly skills. Another was a Dominican baseball player who spoke so fast it was almost impossible to understand him. He carried his bible and knew every verse in it by heart without fail. To summarize, people on the manic end of the mood spectrum up to and including psychosis, generally appear happy, spiritual, and creative.

Conversely, people on the depressive end of the manic depressive mood range, have little or no energy, may have dark thoughts, and are often suicidal. This phase is harder to detect because the individual typically withdraws greatly from social contacts.

All of the above is to propose for consideration that perhaps many of us ex-premies, and certainly many current premies may have undiagnosed cases of mild bipolar disorder thereby rendering us more vulnerable to Mr. Rawat's scam.

In addition, the ashram schedule, 2 hours of daily meditation, coffee, sleep deprivation, etc. may have put us in the manic area of the mood spectrum thereby contributing to our spiritual experiences of "bliss" much like bipolar disorder sufferers in a manic episode.

Just a few thoughts and observations for your consideration. All the best, Roger

4th March 2012 - the psychosis of enlightenment

I agree with you on the whole bell curve thing 13. It fits my personal experience. I also enjoyed your earlier post above, and now wish that I had named this thread "The Psychosis of Enlightenment". That might be a good name for a book on the subject.

4th March 2012 - "Spiritual" experience as a function of mood psychology and brain chemistry

Actually Cynthia it is well documented that bipolar disorders vary from mild to severe. The distinctions between bipolar type I and bipolar type II are clearly made in the medical community. Varying degrees of severity are also commonly accepted within each of these 2 major categories of bipolar disorder. Within sufferers of bipolar disorder, there are those that spend most of their time in the depressed state, those that spend most of their time in the manic state, and those that spend most of their time in a normal functioning state. There are also some that rapidly cycle between all 3 states. The severity of the manias and depressions also varies from individual to individual. The severity of episodes even varies for the same individual. Each manic or depressive episode has its own characteristics of length and intensity. This is born out in the literature as well as in my personal experience.

I enjoyed writing this piece, and it may be flawed in some respects, but I love the term "The Psychosis of Enlightenment" that evolved from it.

Glad to hear the weather is becoming springlike in Vermont, and that the sap is running in the maple trees. Maple syrup on fresh blueberry pancakes, yummy.

Many people try to put a stigma on mental health sufferers as the cult, in their ignorance, apparently attempted to do with ex-premies. This shows a total lack of understanding and compassion that for example a cancer sufferer or diabetic would not be subjected to.

By the way, my son is currently doing quite well, having learned how to modulate his moods into the normal range. He has to get plenty of rest, eat healthy, avoid stress and anxiety. He has not had a psychotic episode for almost 2 years and is living a normal life again. He hopes to return to engineering school this fall.

All the best Cynthia. Roger

4th March 2012 - Re: "Spiritual" experience as a function of mood psychology and brain chemistry

I think meditation, in moderation, may work more as a buffer really, softening the highs and lows. It does reduce anxiety and helps control racing thoughts, both symptoms that occur at the manic end of the manic-depressive spectrum.

Happiness seems to be in the more normal range of the spectrum, short of bliss that exists out near and in the manic psychotic area.

Meditation also seems to soften the down moods. Too much at one time though may have the reverse effect, like relaxing with one drink or getting bombed with several.

I have cut back on my long meditation sessions, and do it in more moderation at this point. Who knows if I will consider it worthwhile at all in a year or two. I understand and respect that many here consider meditation worthless.

I remember JHB telling me in a post shortly after I exed, that my views of meditation may change over time, and they have been evolving somewhat over the last several months.

4th March 2012 - Re: "Spiritual" experience as a function of mood psychology and brain chemistry

Ocker, you state that "surely nobody meditates to lower their level of happiness". Actually they do, if you substitute "their level of mania" for the word happiness. In my opinion, happiness is just one portion of the manic depressive bell curve shaped scale that we all navigate.

They do this because for many people, severe depression follows severe mania. The depression you could almost say, is the hangover for spending too much time too far into the manic region. I think that there are brain chemicals being depleted during time spent being "too happy".

One of my son's psychologists actually teaches her bipolar clients a form of meditation as a way to modulate the level of their mania and to reduce it. This has the positive effect of reducing the depth and duration of their subsequent almost inevitable "depression hangover". It seems to be best to "follow the middle path" on this scale to the extent possible.

4th March 2012 - The Psychosis of "Enlightenment"

Your comment about the intense feeling of meaning during a manic episode is spot on, as is your subsequent comment about the seeming contagiousness and charisma of people having an "enlightenment" psychosis.

The person who convinced me to recieve knowledge and who exhibited these same characteristics, turned out to have a mental disorder that I suspect was bipolar disorder.

I think that a lot of premies who really hyped Mr. Rawat and "knowledge" in the early years were having these manic episodes. I know only one young aspirant at the present time personally, and interestingly, he told me that he suffers from a bipolar disorder.

5th March 2012 - Re: On What Authority

He did say that he could show us God face to face. That could be interpreted as a "big bang".

5th March 2012 - Re: I'm not sure I can buy that

Thanks for your comments Joe. Your observation that people with bipolar disorder do not like to take their medication while in the manic phase is indeed true, and consistent with my personal experience as well.

You suggested that premies therefore would be unlikely to meditate in the manic phase. I agree with this as well, and actually think that they do not. They meditate trying to get bliss, not when they have it. This is probably the reverse of what they should do to be happier long term.

When they are manic, they focus on service and satsang, preferably giving it in the old days.

Obviously most people do not have bipolar disorder, and probably neither did most premies. But most premies, probably over 90%, have left Mr. Rawat and knowledge.

I wonder if the percentages of people with bipolar disorder stayed the same in the 2 groups, premies and ex-premies, as premies transferred from one group to the other.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this Joe.

5th March 2012 - Perhaps primarily taught by cultists and people with mood disorders Sean

Perhaps not Sean, but maybe meditation has been primarily taught by cultists and people with mood disorders over the last several thousand years. And practiced by a fair number too. Remember all the people with obvious mental issues that seemed to get a hold of a microphone at the programs with Mr. Rawat during the "expressions" portions of the programs? And I am sure someone must have been trying to screen them out. I bet at least 25% of all expressions came from people with mental issues. That and the shear number of premies that I know with mood disorders and the related mental issues leads me to think that mood disorders are significantly more common in the cult than in the general population.

And read Ocker's quotes from Mr. Rawat earlier in this thread. Don't they seem a little out of touch with reality? And I am sure that he could supply with you with thousands more similar examples if you wish.

6th March 2012 - Perhaps primarily taught by cultists and people with mood disorders Sean

Hi Lakeshore.

Your comments on "Expressions" are so spot on. I couldn't wait for them to be over back in my days in the cult.

Perhaps I did understate "just a little bit" about how it seems that Mr. Rawat seems just a little bit out of touch with reality.

6th March 2012 - Re: "Spiritual" experience as a function of mood psychology and brain chemistry

I thoroughly enjoyed your very direct, touching, and insightful post Blanch. It was not a rant at all but a clearly communicated very informative post.

I too, hope that the ignorance and stigma around this illness and other mental illnesses can be replaced with compassion and understanding.

I have enjoyed participating in the forum and reading so many incisive analyses of our time as premies, of our life after leaving, and poking fun at Mr. Rawat (although it probably isn't nice) just because I can. It is a new found freedom that is hard to resist. All the best Blanch, and hats off to you for your hard work managing your illness. Roger

7th March 2012 - The Toxic Pursuit of Bliss


Pray that you are not bipolar
If you land in the net of the "Lord"
For the bliss that is promised is mania
Not a blessing, just a curse on your head.

Bliss lies on the border of Psychosis
A domain not intended for you
Your struggles to attain "That Feeling" are wasted
Your moments spent there are few

Can you play your favorite song forever
Without the enjoyment fading away?
Can you hear the same words tomorrow
And have them mean the same as Today?

So you are "normal", what does that matter?
The pursuit of bliss remains completely insane
You are stuck with the life of a human
Or else just living fantasies in your brain

Freedom is not found in surrender
It's in your precious individuality
Wisdom is not found in the concepts of the "Master"
But in your own mind, born of honesty

The "Speaker's" inconsistencies are not "lila"
His extreme materialism serves no one but he
His reclusiveness stems from depression
The nicotine, alcohol, and drugs are co-morbidity

Break away, drop your chains, its OK to do
Leave your bipolar master
To his delusions of grandeur
He needs treatment, not devotion from you.

By: Lover of truth

7th March 2012 - Re: That's great! (just tweak the scansion a little?)

Coming from you Larkin, that is great praise indeed. You are one of my all time favorite poets!!! Your poems in the archives are awesome!!!!!

I am quite a novice when it comes to poetry as I never studied it nor practiced it much. So, I have to admit that I don't know what a scansion is. Can you tell me?

8th March 2012 - Re: I liked the poem

Hi Lesley. Glad that you enjoyed the poem. I have looked up the term scansion and now understand that it does have something to do with the beat as you pointed out. It is a very valid criticism of the poem that I can see, now that it has rested for a day. Thanks for the input from all including Karen and Larkin who truly are very good poets, based on their work that I have read in the forum.

Co-morbidity is a term used in the medical community to describe the presence of 2 or more diseases or disorders in the same person at the same time, especially ones that tend to often occur together such as bipolar often does with alcoholism, drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, and outrageous spending sprees. We all know someone like this, don't we?

Re. treatment: It would require a "perfect treatment" for a "perfect master" I suppose.

First the person would have to accept the possibility that they indeed may have the disorder(s). A competent medical professional would then be required to properly diagnose and develop an initial treatment plan. Then,treatment would depend on the severity of the bipolar disorder. The other co-morbid factors present, i.e. alcoholism, drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, financial irresponsibility, and perhaps others would also have to be addressed. A good 12 step program may help with the alcoholism. I know several people that this has helped.

The chance of Mr. Rawat doing this is probably remote, because it takes a lot of courage to confront someone with an intervention. I don't think any of the premies around him would even suggest such a thing, as they would risk their status in the organization and perhaps in many cases their financial status as well.

This is very sad actually. The people close enough to Mr. Rawat to do something to help him, (his family, the Pascottos, the Brogans, his staff, etc.) apparantly don't love him enough to confront him about these issues even though they profess such a deep love for him. They are too caught up in their own disfunctional lives apparantly.

And like most people, those close to him probably know very little about mental illness and its links to these other "red flag" behavior disorders. Most bipolar disorder sufferers do not proceed all the way to psychosis during their manias, so they are harder to diagnose.

Would you want to be the one to suggest to him that he is mentally ill? I would bet that would lead to immediate banishment from his Byzantine Court.

On a lighter subject, I stumbled across the "Chronicles of the Red Nighty" last night. I couldn't stop reading until I finished at 3 AM. I laughed my ass off. A must read.

8th March 2012 - Re: Chronicles of the Red Nighty

Have you read the bit where, um who was it, either Michael Dettmers, or Bob Mishler did try for an intervention - got a psychologist in. It went badly.

I think that it was Michael Dettmers, but that was long ago. Progress in diagnosis and treatment has been made since then, and continued progress is expected, though it is no easy path.

If his family, staff, PAMS, and the general premie population stop enabling him, then he has a chance. Otherwise, probably not.

If premies see his behavior for what it is, it may help them leave and focus on building or rebuilding their own lives.

Mr. Rawat has plenty of resources for his own care, so no one needs to worry about that.

9th March 2012 - Only a numbskull would say knowledge is free

Well said Lakeshore. And also, only a numbskull would believe it. I must admit that I am embarrassed to have been one of those numbskulls.

11th March 2012 - Re: concerted exposés.

Or a billboard on Pacific Coast Highway

11th March 2012 - Re: That's great! (just tweak the scansion a little?)

Larkin, does this read better? I changed a few things to try to improve the scansion a little.

The Toxic Pursuit of Bliss

Pray that you are not bipolar
If you land in the net of the "Lord"
For the bliss that is promised is mania
Not a blessing, just a curse on your head

Bliss lies on the border of psychosis
A domain not intended for you
Your struggles to dwell in "That Feeling" are wasted
The moments you've spent there are few

Can you play your favorite song forever
Without the enjoyment fading away?
Can you hear the same words tomorrow
And have them mean the same as today?

So you are "normal", what does that matter?
Your pursuit of bliss remains completely insane
You are stuck living the life of a human
Or else living fantasies in your brain

Freedom is not found in surrender
It's in your precious individuality
Wisdom is not found in the concepts of the "Master"
But in your own mind, born of honesty

The "Speaker's" inconsistencies are not "lila"
His extreme materialism serves no one but he
His reclusiveness stems from depression
The nicotine, alcohol, and drugs are co-morbidity

Break away, drop your chains, it OK to do
Leave your narcissist master
To his delusions of grandeur
He needs treatment, not devotion from you

By: Lover of Truth

12th March 2012 - Of words and T*rds

Rawat's latest events in Spain and South America are all 'invitation only'.

Hi 13. By invitation only… Maybe to keep the riff raff like us out ha ha. It would be interesting to see what they would do if I requested an invitation. Not that I would.

On a very different note, I was remembering that Prem never used gold plated microphones, yet we all know that he did use gold plated toilets.

This brought back memories of a saying attributed to Shri Hans, his father. Shri Hans is reported to have said that "The similarity between a rich man and a poor man is that they both eat food and produce excrement. The difference is that the excrement of a rich man costs more to produce."

Perhaps little Prem misunderstood the word "expensive", and took it to mean "precious". This would explain why he feels compelled to lay his greasy eggs in a golden toilet.

The fact that his words are expelled into non golden microphones seems to indicate that perhaps he "feels" that his T*rds are more precious than his words.

12th March 2012 - Re: "Knowledge of the crime"…..

Hi Jasper. I appreciate your perspective, and did not mean to imply that guilt was appropriate, only that it is an issue that perhaps many of us deal with. Remorse is certainly an issue that we deal with as well, and I think is unavoidable.

I agree with you and others that those who have "knowing complicity" in Rawat's activities are sitting in another of his "boats" altogether.

12th March 2012 - The Canadian Warbler has a beautiful Voice

Hi Canadawarbler. Thank you for your kind words. I enjoy your posts very much.

I am not one to nit pick on words about whether Mr. Rawat is a sociopath or a narcissist. Neither terms are very flattering to him. Narcissist is fine with me, though it is my current view that the harsher term applies.

I wonder, how can anyone view a man who has his supporters line up to kiss his feet as a sane man, let alone as a role model?

And how can the premies, in good conscience, keep this a secret from the newcomers, for whom a bait and switch is almost certainly in the plan.

There is only one answer. They still believe that he is the "Lord" even when he is publicly saying that he is not. He is not going to discourage them privately, or his money stream will dry up.

And now he uses TPRF to preach to people in jail. Haven't those people suffered enough. It is almost double jeopardy to be exposed to Rawat during incarceration.

As far as being freeing to post with my real name, well it has its pluses and minuses. A google name search for me now brings searchers to the ex-premie sites, so my identity is very tied into that, and having once been a premie does not make me proud. I have far more non premie than premie friends so they may stumble on it and wonder…What???? However, I am what I am and can deal with it. I am pretty much retired, so I don't have to worry so much about what other people think of me as those people in the work force must consider.

12th March 2012 - Re: Bill Patterson

Hi, Tarvuist. I also have positive memories of Bill as a person separate from the Guru silliness aspect of all of our lives.

I think that one of the reasons that we stayed involved for so long is that knowledge was presented as a "seed" and that we had to water it and care for it, etc. We always expected that "that seed" would grow and become a "tree" full of fruit for us. Therefore it was not our current experience, but our future experience that was most important.

I think that most of us who watered "that seed" for over 30 years can say that "that experience" did not evolve much over time. It did grow a little, but it produced no usable fruits that I can see. In Iowa, we called these types of seeds " those weeds". The problem with weeds is that they crowd out the more beneficial plants. In our case, the "knowledge weed" crowded out the depth of experience we might otherwise have had with family, friends, education, careers, community involvement, etc.

I recently received a couple emails from premies encouraging me to reconsider my ex-ing. I did not know them, but they used the e-mail address on my journey entry. One of them wrote that I obviously didn't make enough effort yet. He mentioned that he had received knowledge in 1971, so I guess he was implying that I needed to water the seed for another year or 2 to reach his level of understanding. I guess he doesn't know that I come from a farm background and that as an unwritten rule, we generally allow only 39 years of watering seeds before we replow the field and plant something else. They meant well, I suppose.

Anyway Tarvuist, it is my understanding that you were once an initiator or instructor. As such you would be in a unique and perhaps "enlightened" position to comment further on this whole "seed planting" business, and what you were taught about it by Mr. Rawat. I know, that I for one would love to hear more about this from you.

15th March 2012 - Re: The poor soil of Iowa

Actually Ocker, the soil is very fertile in Iowa. The weather is tricky though. When I received "knowledge", I should have let the farmers at the "Country Pumpkin" take a look at "that seed". It was a pretty weird seed in hindsight. I bet they would have advised me not to plant it and try something a little more proven. Those farmers are generally a pretty conservative lot. We also used a lot of cow manure to fertilize our fields. I should have been able to smell bullshit as well. Perhaps something is wrong with my nose.

20th March 2012 - Re: well what do you expect - she was married to Prem Rawat

Yes Lesley, wouldn't it be something if she could find the inner strength to tell the truth about what it is really like to be married to Prem Rawat. A little something to reverse the karma of her part in helping to suck us all in to his scam. Hopefully she will find the dignity to come clean.

21st March 2012 - Re: Poor Marolyn Rawat a/k/a "Mom…

Cynthia, I do have sympathy for the woman. From Jasper's post, it seems clear that she is no longer viewing him as the Lord as she did when he first worked his guru voodoo on her. She must be sick to her stomach when she remembers that he placed his chubby little hands all over her body, and put his slimy Ji'zzlings into her body. No amount of material comfort can possibly dull an ache like this. Thus the alcohol to numb her existence. As a parent, I think that it must be the kids that keeps her from coming clean. She doesn't probably want to hurt them by hurting their father. A woeful mess, sort of like a rape victim with a child.

22nd March 2012 - Re: Laughing at the lord

Hi Marianne. Poking fun at the "Lord" is indeed therapeutic. I too enjoy a crass remark, from time to time, at the expense of "Malibu Prem". When you first venture into the territory of saying something critical of Prem, there is certainly a deep seated fear of divine retribution. As that fear goes away, it is replaced by the joy of its absence. A random poke at the Ji is a great joy and an expression of freedom from his repression of our minds and thoughts. The house of Maharaj ji Drek is a great storehouse of these types of freeing expressions. I especially find the dancing boobs entry hilarious, even more so because I heard that the Ji does not like it. He must be furious with Michael Woods for that shot.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch

23rd March 2012 - Re: yes it is

Hi Cynthia. I respect your disagreement, but I said it was sort of like rape. The reason being that her consciousness was altered prior to the sex. If this is done with a drug, it is considered rape, I believe. I think the cult influence diminished her capacity to make a rational decision or series of rational decisions, and thus my opinion that it is sort of like rape. That is in no way intended to diminish the more violent and I expect more traumatic physical assault type rape. I am no legal expert, but perhaps Marianne as an attorney could add her expert opinion here.

23rd March 2012 - You just might be a cult member

After a particularly incredible meditation last night that involved some great breath technique combined with some outrageous spontaneous light and a nice riff of either music or tinnitus in my right ear, I was ripped. There in the bed of my stream of consciousness lay the pearls that constituted the beginnings of this post. After making a commitment to myself to write this post on my return home, I proceeded to snuggle into a deep and peaceful sleep. I am now home, so here it is, my attempt at a little "blue collar comedy".

1. If you have feelings of guilt for checking out this website and reading this post…. Youuuu just might be a cult member
2. If you gave at least one inheritance to your spiritual group or it's leader…… Youuu just might be a cult member
3. If you participated in a secret initiation ceremony other than the time you got drunk and joined a college fraternity….. Youuu just might be a cult member
4. If you ever lived in a coed commune for extended periods of time in your youth while foregoing the pleasures of sex at the direction of your spiritual leader…….. Youuuu just might be a cult member
5. If you know at least three sisters in your spiritual group personally with whom your married spiritual leader has had sex (in addition to his wife)…….. Youuu just might be a cult member
6. If your service is to monitor the posts on this forum for your spiritual group leader….Youuu just might be a cult member
7. If you have helped provide for the financial security of your spiritual leader's children, but have not gotten around to doing the same for your own…… Youuu just might be a cult member
8. If recruitment of new group members is a priority for you…. You just might be a cult member
9. If you feel like an orange being squeezed over and over for all your financial juice to be fund raised for the group…. You just might be a cult member
10. If you have actually kissed any part of your group leader's body below the waist, and lined up to wait for the privilege……Youuuu just might be a cult member
11. If you gushed about the beauty of this act of self humiliation to other members, but are ashamed to admit it to non group members….Youuu just might be a cult member
12. If you noticed entire years of earnings being at or near zero during your youth on your most recent social security withholding summary…… Youuu just might be a cult member
13. If you ever referred to your spiritual leader or his wife as Mom or Dad……. Youuu just might be a cult member
14. If you ever drank water used to wash your spiritual leader's feet……. You just might be a cult member
15. If you refuse to disagree with or criticize your spiritual leader…… You just might be a cult member
16. If you get upset with other people who disagree with or criticize your spiritual leader….. Youuu just might be a cult member
17. If you gather together with other group members and sing devotional songs to your spiritual leader…. Youuu just miiiight be a cult member
18. If your group media director reminds you of the Iraqi foreign minister (Baghdad Bob) during the fall of Sadaam Hussein……. Youuu just might be a cult member
18. If you use the phrase "by the grace of ____" and fill in the blank with anything other than the word God…….. Youuuu just might be a cult member
19. If you have ever become alienated from your family as a result of your spiritual group involvement…… You just might be a cult member
20. If you have at least one divorce as a result of your involvement in your spiritual group….. Youuu just might be a cult member
21. If your children think that you are in a cult….. Youuu just might be a cult member
22. If you are one of thousands of people who believe that their spiritual leader loves them personally as much, or more that you love him…… You just might be a cult member
23. If you have ever prayed to your spiritual leader (or his picture)….. Youuu just might be a cult member
24. If you find yourself often defending your spiritual leader's ethics, behavior, contradictions, or hypocricy, or else just shutting up to avoid sounding like a fool……Youuu just might be a cult member
25. If you leave your spiritual group affiliation off your personal information for any reason…..Youuu just might be a cult member
26. If you have ever lied about your involvement with your spiritual group for business reasons…..You just might be a cult member
27. If you believe that a feeling is more important than rational thinking, ethical behavior, or personal relationships……Youuu just might be a cult member
28. If you believe that your mind is evil or that doubt is a bad thing…… Youuu just might be a cult member
29. If you have participated in a cover up of prior cult activities (revisionism)….. Youuu just might be a cult member
30. If you think service to your leader justifies any deceit or unethical behavior….. You just might be a cult member
31. If you have been practicing your leader's teachings for 20, 30, or 40 years and your teacher still considers you incapable of discussing anything other than his grandeur or your gratitude…… Youuu just might be a cult member
32. If you think that your leader is working hard by jet setting around the world giving a few extemporaneous speeches a month……Youuu just might be a cult member
33. If you have ever stood up and blathered during an "expression" at an event ….you are a cult member
34. Numerous other examples, add your own here



24th March 2012 - The right to remain silent

Thanks Kelly. And as my favorite blue collar comic Ron White says "I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability". So here goes again:

"The only difference between a lotus foot and a lotus ass is the depth of bullsh*t in the room."

24th March 2012 - Re: Let's not make excuses for Marolyn Rawat, please…

Cynthia, I don't disagree with you, and I am certainly not in any way an expert in this area. I am just thinking about the cases where women were drugged into a state of reduced mental capacity and then assaulted, and then whether cult members actually may have their mental capacity reduced by their cult activities and therefore may lie in this area. I am not opinionated one way or the other on this, just considering it for discussion. All the best, Roger

After re-reading your post Cynthia, I must agree with you that in the case of Marilyn, the fact that she broke free of Rawat's influence enough to have an affair, certainly seems to indicate the presence of undiminished free will. Very, very astute and relevant observation Cynthia.

24th March 2012 - Re: the Madness Of Crowds

Thanks for the book reco Ocker. And thanks Lesley for bringing up the subject of crowd behavior which must surely apply here. Whatever explanation for what we were in, certainly has to include some aspect of group/crowd dynamics.

And by the way Ocker, since you seem to be a fact freak, try googling Alvaro Pascotto and take a look at the size of his Malibu house. It may be bigger than Rawat's. Now, I have no problem with that on the surface, but when you and your wife solicit funds from people so obviously less well off than yourself, you should probably disclose your own lifestyle and comparative level of committment. He and Linda obviously haven't contributed to the level of sacrifice that they encourage in the less well off premie community many of whom can't even afford basic health insurance coverage. Shame on them.

26th March 2012 - Re: Linda Pascotto

A google search of Alvaro Pascotto leads to an entry that shows an aerial view of Alvaro's and Linda's Malibu mansion. I pointed this out not because there is anything wrong with them enjoying the fruits of their or their parents efforts, but merely to mention that in leading fund raising efforts, which they do, their wealth is apparantly so much greater than that of the vast majority of the people from whom they are soliciting funds. I have met both of them and like them personally, but I don't think they realize what a hardship it is for most premies to keep their donations flowing, so much more so than it is for them. I wish they would stop to think about the situations of the people whom they continually encourage to financially participate.

27th March 2012 - Re: How wonderful that you have forgotten….

Hi Mike.

It is always a pleasure for a forum newcomer like myself to read the postings of the "old timers" like yourself. Thanks for still taking the time to weigh in on the issues.

Yes, Mike, thinking back I can still remember the cult thinking that thoroughly permeated my outlook for most of my adult life. I don't always consider it in my postings, and maybe at times, I have become a little insensitive to the plight of premies like the Pascottos. I, like you, prefer to be generous and prescribe to them the premie mindset to explain their actions.

It is an interesting strategy though, having the rich lead the efforts to fleece the poor.

27th March 2012 - Re: the Madness Of Crowds

Hi Ocker. Sorry for the belated reply. No, I was not involved in the trainings. This was probably during my time as Pres. of A.M.P. and I was very busy. I was pretty much left alone by the cult heirarchy at this point other than occasional calls from Kathy Gleibe and Alvaro Pascotto to set up meetings with Mr. Rawat mostly related to the residence and his aircraft projects or to ask for aviation related advice.

27th March 2012 - Re: now there's a phrase: "Maliboozer"!

Maliboozer! I love it. You should trademark it and sell T shirts on the California coast with the phrase tactfully incorporated into something trendy and tasteful, something perhaps with a picture of Prem in his Captain's uniform. Perhaps you could license it to the company that Monica Lewis ran for the Rawat empire. I smell a real moneymaker here.

28th March 2012 - You just might be a cult member

Your'e welcome Old Timer. I enjoyed writing it. I am thinking about printing out some copies for my premie friends. I don't know how else to disseminate it. I know a couple fence sitters who read it and seemed to be positively effected by it. All the best. Roger

29th March 2012 - Re: Dear Bob

Mike, that is an incredible post. Your definition of a premie is spot on. And in that regard I too believe that most of the inner circle believe that Rawat is divine as do the vast majority of the remainder of his followers regardless of what the public face may be. The exceptions of the inner circle that I believe do not believe this are Raja Ji and Marolyn and the kids. I have my own reasons for saying this. And I think that Linda is currently very conflicted about this as well. I think that she is basically a kind hearted and moral person caught up in something beyond her current ability to step out of.

When I first started posting, I was still a premie. I was just a disappointed one willing to face the Lord's wrath by publicly criticizing him. My participation on the forum helped me lose my belief that Rawat was in any way divine, and thus I am now truly an ex-premie.

Thanks for that post Mike. Roger

29th March 2012 - Fish Tales

About a year ago, during my last personal meeting with Mr. Rawat before ex-ing, talk turned to the beautiful Atlantic Ocean which was extremely beautiful on that day and clearly visible from my seat on the couch in the hotel suite in which we were meeting. After I mentioned how beautiful it looked that day, Mr. Rawat remarked how it was much more beautiful from the other side. I am a fisherman and boater in South Florida, so I knew what that meant, it was much more beautiful in the Bahamas, a scant 55 miles to the east. Now the water in the Bahamas is generally very clear, more so than in Miami, and I agreed. Still, the view that day was stunning.

Swimming Free aka Roger KochMr. Rawat then mentioned that he used to have a "boat". (At this time I had no knowledge of the yacht). He said that he used to take his "boat" to the Bahamas to Cat Cay where he was a member and had a "plaque" on the wall of the club there with his name on it. Cat Cay is a private island and yacht club south of Bimini about 20 miles I would guess. He then asked me if I had a boat and I said yes, a fishing boat. I offered to take him fishing and he laughed and declined. I also offered to give him some of the fish that I caught, but he politely laughed and again declined. He then mentioned that his kids liked to fish and caught plenty of fish but released most of them. I then offered to teach his kids how to fish off Miami, because it is a well known fact that 10 percent of the fishermen catch 90 percent of the fish. He again politely declined and stated that they are pretty good fishermen and catch lots of fish. I said OK and that was it for that topic.

Last fall I was sitting with Hans Rawat, Malibu Prem's son at a table at a TPRF fund raiser. I told him that I had spoken to his father about fishing and that his father had said that he was pretty good and had caught a lot of fish. Hans laughed at this and said that when he and his sister went fishing they never caught much of anything. He mentioned that his father once sent he and Premlata out into the Mediterranean to catch a tuna. They spent all day and were skunked except for a couple tiny bait sized fish. I told him that when he came to Miami, that I would teach him how to fish and he seemed genuinely enthused about this. I ex-ed shortly thereafter, so that was the last time that I spoke to anyone in the Rawat family. I bring this up because why couldn't "The Maliboozer" admit that neither he nor his children knew how to catch fish and simply accept an offer of help from a premie? He even went so far as to actually lie about something so simple as catching a fish.

30th March 2012 - Re: Fish Tales

Hi Quirky. You are so right, there is so much to see between the lines of a simple story like this. I submitted it because for most premies, all they hear are stories embellished and colored by those rose colored glasses that we have taken off and smashed. This story, though simple, actually reveals a lot.

Credit for the term "Maliboozer" goes to CQ in the Ocker Premie Queen thread I believe.

31st March 2012 - Re: Typical Rawat…..

Jasper, your analysis of the meeting dynamics is very insightful, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. It is amazing to me that I did not see it that way at the time though I certainly do now. I find it interesting that Hans felt no obligation to lie to cover up his father's fish stories, nor did he exhibit the superiority complex. He seemed eager to accept my help to teach him how to fish.

31st March 2012 - Re: Valerio

Damn Lakeshore, I can see why you have a hard time with Valerio. That stuff sounds terrible, possibly even criminal, but certainly immoral and upprofessional for a licensed psychologist. I don't know the statute of limitations in cases like these, but perhaps you should pursue a possible legal proceeding, maybe a class action if you can track down enough "participants". It amazes me that I was spared all this, I have no idea why, but thank God. Must have been considered unworthy as I was not participating at the local level at that time.

1st April 2012 - Re: has he EVER had a realization or truth about life to share

I heard this one with my own ears to open a private meeting.

"Time is Passing", Mr. Rawat stated grandiosely to open the meeting conversation. After deep thought about this tonight, it appears that he may have been right in this instance. The burning question in my mind is, has anyone else ever noticed this?

1st April 2012 - Re: An attempt at clarification. WOW! Just what I thought when I read it

Thanks for reposting this cq. What a shame that John is not still posting on the forum. There are some deep insights in this post. A person could think about these things for a long time and not have this level of clarity. I have read more truth on this forum in the last 6 months than I heard in nearly 40 years in the Rawat cult. Thanks to all the forum old timers for their past and current contributions. Roger

1st April 2012 - Re: The Amaroo Rebellion

Hi Lesley. That story blows my mind yet again. Mr. Rawat, who tries to posture himself as a humanitarian leader providing food to the starving masses, did not even consider it appropriate to provide a decent breakfast to his own volunteer workers who were doing hard manual labor service on his own property for his own event. Incredible. And he has the nerve to stand up in front of these people and tell them that he loves them (every once in a while when he isn't pissed off at them). God, how much abuse can a premie take before enough is enough?

Secondly I wonder, If Yoram Weiss had never become involved with Mr. Rawat, would he still have been so inconsiderate of you or those workers? Somehow I think he would have been more appreciative. I think most normal people would be. It is sad how Mr. Rawat has caused decent human beings to behave so scandalously inhuman to each other in his little cult.

It just occurred to me, I bet Yoram had a good breakfast though. As I recall, the honchos always appeared to live pretty "high on the hog" as we say in Iowa.

2nd April 2012 - Re: remembering that time

The American lawyer that spent a lot of time in India must have been this guy named Virgil. Don't remember seeing him for a long time.

2nd April 2012 - Re: has he EVER had a realization or truth about life to share

Well he did also realize that if you saw a perfectly good car in half that you can't just put it back together again. Now even the most ignorant, bare foot, possum eating, moonshine swilling, toothless, unbathed, vermin infested, hillbilly wouldn't do that to a new car. They would just instinctively know better. They say sometimes actions speak louder than words. This may be the case here.

no offense to hillbillies intended

2nd April 2012 - Re: Because you are unusually susceptible to suggestion?

Mike Finch recently gave a very clear and concise opinion of the definition of a premie as basically someone who views Mr. Rawat as God or God like. I am not sure that this was the correct definition in the early to mid 70's, but it certainly is today even though many premies don't readily admit this.

When I received knowledge in Feb. 73, I had doubts about the Divinity of Mr. Rawat, but I wanted to have the inner experience of which he spoke. Simply receiving knowledge did not resolve these doubts. Neither did practicing meditation. I ask myself, how did I evolve from this scepticism to full acceptance of Mr. Rawat's divinity, and thus to being truly caught in Mr. Rawat's net?

The answer is multi-faceted, but in my opinion, it involved 2 very significant major ongoing deceptions. The first was the "Darshan Story Embellishment", and the second was what I call "Subconscious Idiot Algebra Brainwashing".

However, first let me present a brief description of past and present Rawat cult hierarchy structures.

When most of the western premies received knowledge, the cult hierarchy was structured a little differently than it is today. Back then, there was little Mr. Rawat, then his family, then the close Mahatmas, then the rank and file mahatmas,then the famous premies who were famous by virtue of how much time they had spent around little Mr. Rawat. Then organizational honchos started to also work their way into the mix (International and National honchos outranking local honchos of course), then there were the rank and file members who had status based upon how early they had received knowledge, and lastly were the aspirants or whatever they were called back then.

Today the hierarchy is still Mr. Rawat, then his family (different members though), then the oranizational honchos, then the major donors, then maybe the PAM's, then who really knows. Mahatmas have evolved into facilitators I believe and they have no status it appears at all. Time in the cult practicing knowledge has no relevance having been replaced by donor status. (The hierarchy observations are based upon my observations of seating assignments at various types of events involving Mr. Rawat both in the past and present.)

There was somewhat of a rationale to this hierarchy of course. The Mahatmas were viewed as realized souls. They were assumed to have had knowledge a long time, and were to be emulated. They had a whole surrender your life to "Maharaj Ji" thing going on, very over the top, and this set the standard for every one else to emulate.

The whole emphasis on seniority based upon when you received knowledge made sense, because it was expected that each passing day brought us closer to "realizing" knowledge. The longer that you had been at it, obviously the closer you were to this magical promised state. Time was on your side, you just had to stick with it and you would become closer and closer to "realizing" knowledge until one day miraculously you did. Mr. Rawat claimed to have reached this state after meditating for a very brief period almost immediately upon receiving knowledge due to his exalted status. The rest of us probably figured we could do it in a few years if we really put ourselves into it. And so we wholeheartedly did.

Over time, the value of meditation was replaced by the value of financial contributions to Mr. Rawat, as Mr. Rawat's constantly increasing materialism spun increasingly out of control without abatement even to this day. Thus, when I became rich and made major contributions, I became a very dear premie, so much so that at the 40th anniversary celebration of Mr. Rawat arriving in the west celebrated in Los Angeles last fall, I was seated in the front row while Gary Girard, a personal friend, who was one of the original handful of American premies and in whose flat Mr. Rawat stayed when he came to Los Angeles in 1971, was relegated to the 3rd row. When I saw this at that program, I was personally embarassed by how shabbily Gary had been treated considering the occasion. Money, Money, Money is the Priority in Mr. Rawat's world, like location, location, location is the priority in the world of real estate.

Now the "Fully Embellished Darshan Story" was very important to our evolution into becoming a "premie". Most of us had never seen or even spent time with little Mr. Rawat. The exceptions were the early converts like Mike Finch, Joan Apter, Saph, Gary Girard, and other famous early premies. I don't know about Mike or Saph, but I do know the early American premies were very polished spinners of "Darshan Stories". These stories universally portrayed Mr. Rawat as someone with a "Divine Presence".

I recently posted a thread called "Fish Tales" where I purposefully told a "Darshan Story" being very careful to remember it as exactly as possible, and also to be careful not to add any embellishments. Told as it was, "Fish Tales" actually did not portray Mr. Rawat in a very positive light. However, I can guarantee you that if a few things were left out, a few feelings thrown in, etc. that this story could be retold so that the premies would love this story and be inspired by it. By embellishing these "Darshan Stories" premies became complicit in their own and others brainwashing. I am embarassed to say, that in hindsight, I probably did this myself when asked to speak to premies about my time spent with Mr. Rawat. I almost certainly must have projected more into these meetings than was actually there, and then shared it in "Satsang". I think this ongoing practice is instrumental in converting a seeker of truth into a minion of Mr. Rawat.

Does this still go on in Rawat's little cult today? Absolutely without a doubt. Almost without exception, the only premies that are allowed to speak to other premies at "public events" are premies who have recently had "Darshan" and are proven "Darshan Embellishers", or to put it more simply, self deceived, self important, delusional bullshiters.

All of the major donor calls used the "darshan story" premie speaker. All of the major donor meetings used the "darshan story" premie speaker. And whenever possible, service meeting coordinators try to include a "darshan story" premie speaker as well. Thus the premies are constantly being reinforced with tales of Mr. Rawat's "Superior Qualities", "accomplishments" and "wisdom" by people who are fresh and straight from the feet of the "Master" himself. And so of course, they are in a remarkable state of "clarity". And of course speakers learn how to smile, posture, gush and embellish the story as they bask in their moment of glory praising Mr. Rawat to a "captive" audience.

The other major technique used repeatedly to mount an assault on a premie's rational mind by Mr. Rawat, is what I call "SubConscious Idiot Algebra Brainwashing". (Acronymn SCIAB This may be pronounced Scab with a silent I or just SIAB whichever is preferred.)

Now anyone who has ever studied algebra knows the corollary that "If A=B, and B=C, then A=C". It is one of the pillars of both algebra and logic. If the human mind hears that A=B, and then hears that B=C, then the human mind will subconsciously fill in the fact that A=C without that exact statement ever being said. Mr. Rawat says that "I" am the "Perfect Master". He has also said that the "Perfect Master" is "Greater than God" and also that the "Perfect Master" is an "incarnation of God". He has also said that other accepted "incarnations of God" were all the "Perfect Masters" of their time. Now without him ever saying that "I am an incarnation of God" or "I am greater than God", or "I am God", he has placed that claim into the premie's mind's over and over subconsciously while still denying that he ever said it. He also speaks of "Guru Maharaj ji's Grace". Have you ever heard of the attribute of "grace" being assigned to anyone other than God? He also spoke about praying to "Guru Maharaj Ji". Have you ever heard of "praying" to anyone other than God or an avowed incarnation of God? The premie's mind is assaulted by these types of phrases over and over, program after program, video after video, dvd after dvd, song after song, from the beginning of the aspirant process onward, until the natural defenses of the premie's mind are broached and the premie breaks down and subconsciously accepts that Rawat is God or Godlike and thereby becomes a fully brainwashed premie and is firmly caught in Mr. Rawat's net. Yet if asked if A=C, Rawat will always deny the connection and blame it on someone else. And because much of this Brainwashing happens subconsciously, the premie himself/herself may not even be fully aware that he/she believes that Rawat is God or Godlike even though he/she does in fact believe this.

Since Mr. Rawat dropped out of school in the 8th grade, it could be that he never studied algebra or logic and thus can be partially excused for just being ignorant. However, I think that he knowingly uses this technique without fully understanding it. Thus I have given it the name "Subconscious Idiot Algebra Brainwashing" technique in honor of Mr. Rawat. Now don't misunderstand me, I didn't say Mr. Rawat was an idiot, or that the Perfect Master was an Idiot, or that God was an idiot either for that matter. But, other people might say this, and I think you should ask them why they say that Mr. Rawat is an Idiot instead of bothering me. I simply named a brainwashing technique after him, and if people are going to be confused about this, then they should take it up with Mr. Rawat's Algebra teacher.

3rd April 2012 - Re: "Subconscious Idiot Algebra Brainwashing"

The premies sure did say "A=C". That is what I called in the above thread "Darshan Story Embellishment". That is what "Darshan Story Embellishment" is all about. How could they have said "A=C" based upon fact or experience when it so obviously isn't true? Now they didn't start out believing this, but when the "SCIAB" started working some of them became brainwashed into believing "A=C". Once this had happened to enough premies, the effect of the dual onslaught of "Embellished Darshan Stories" ie "A=C" coming from the premies and the SCIAB (A=B and B=C) coming from Mr. Rawat quickly mushroomed into the early propagation boom that trapped the vast majority of the western premies.

3rd April 2012 - Re: it was that Algebraic Stupidity Syndrome, not us Joe"

Hi Lesley. I can see that you excelled at both algebra and logic. However, Mr. Rawat will never figure this one out because according to Ocker's post, he has never once in his life had to use algebra.

3rd April 2012 - Sounds like I'm screwed.

Since by "The Master's" own example, I will be heading to hell, I can just as well go ahead and tell the true story of Rawat's alien abduction and subsequent anal probe. There is nothing really holding me back any more now that I have lost all hope of salvation.

This happened just the other day when the Venusians finally made it to earth having missed Millenium 73 and went looking for and finally found Rawat. I don't have time to tell that story right now, but if anyone wants to hear this most recent "Darshan Story", I will try to find the time to write it down in the coming days.

3rd April 2012 - Re: Is it intentional?

Joe, I think it is intentional. These Gurus have apparently been doing this same thing for hundreds of years. It is sort of like the unspoken tricks of the trade that they all have learned to use. I don't think that we can assume that they were all as uneducated as Rawat. And who's to say that Shri Hans didn't explain all this to Mata Ji before he died.

14th April 2012 - Re: If I was Rennie Davis

Rennie has been an ex-premie for a long time. Are Randy Prouty and Leroy West also exes? Let us not shoot at our brethren here in the land of Ex-prem, lest they become sore afraid and become reluctant to socialize with us in the joy of celebration in the loosening of the bonds of our servitude. Perhaps a little laugh at Rennie and his continuing grandiosity are in order though. After all, us old time premies had to eat a lot of crow for the shit he said at Millenium. He did bail shortly after that, and I know that he was embarassed for his part.

20th April 2012 - Re: Rennie Davis…

Hi Mike, my comment was a general one on the topic and not directed to you personally with regards Rennie. I did not know him personally, but lived with his brother Bob and Bob's wife, Lynne, for several years while I worked at DECA. They were and are 2 of the nicest people that I have met in my life. I think that they are still premies, but that reminds me, that I need to call them and see how they are doing. With regards to Rennie, I know that Bob Davis told me that his brother Rennie was no longer involved at the time of DECA and at that time that he was embarrassed by the things he had said. I expect that Rennie would temper any comments with a desire to respect his family members' continuing involvement. When I said that he was a long time expremie, I wasn't using the definition of an expremie as someone prepared to insult Mr. Rawat that applies to us hard core exes. I guess he is more of a soft core ex.

22nd April 2012 - Re: Rennie Davis's letter from 2006 plus the ex-premie responses

Rennie is probably in his mid 60's now. He spent a couple years as a celebrity premie and dropped out to pursue other interests. Those few years may not seem so significant to him now in the context of his entire life. He is certainly a flawed individual as we all are to some extent. He is obviously not fully deprogrammed and still suffers from a sense of grandiosity.

I agree with Ocker that the new age business stuff will probably end badly for investors of which hopefully there are few. Premies are suckers for this stuff because our interactions with Rawat taught us to disrespect facts and science leaving many premies susceptible to these Psuedoscience scams.

Rawat always presented himself as an expert on nearly every subject, often stating opinions as fact when they were in direct contradiction of known facts and science. This caused many premies to distrust educationally derived fact based information and theories, and left bullshit as equally valid. This leaves them vulnerable to these obviously flawed business models. Sadly, I know many premies who have suffered greatly financially from other premies psuedoscience business scams.

21st April 2012 - The worship of Prem Rawat

Ocker, I think that by leaving out of your post any mention of the pranaming, foot kissing, drinking foot wash water, eating scraps of food left over from his plate, Krishna Crown wearing dancing, Bhole Shriiing, "Holy Family Bullshit", etc… etc. , that you are putting a positive revisionist point of view on this worship thing you refer to in your post that all premies know actually never happened anyway.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch2nd May 2012 - Rawat insults local premie's wife

I am stunned, but I guess I shouldn't be. Today I had a brief conversation with a long time premie friend here in Miami. He knows my ex-premie status and confided in me his extreme displeasure with Mr. Rawat during a recent personal service encounter. He informed me that Mr. Rawat referred to his non-premie wife as a mail order bride, and then went on to question the validity of her education credentials.

I personally know his non premie wife of probably nearly 20 years. She is foreign born, very attractive, very educated, very intelligent, and very charming. Her long time premie husband (my friend) loves her very much, and I have every reason to believe the feeling is mutual.

He told me that he expressed his displeasure at these comments, but that Rawat refused to apologize. This premie has provided a very valuable service to the Rawat family for over 30 years I would imagine, at great expense to himself, and this is the thanks he gets.

Good one Prem. Insult them all. The jig is up. They are all getting wise to your B.S. I see one more ex-premie coming up.

2nd May 2012 - Ocker fantasizes about sex with Rawat's twin sister

Jesus JHB, you must be so old you've lost your memory of what it is like to be a 16 year old boy. He slept with her for a green card? Do Lativians even have sex? For that matter I'd have sex with her without any promise of a passport even at 61 rather than at 16 and at 16 I would have had sex with Rawat's twin sister.

Well, I guess at least they wouldn't be identical twins.

2nd May 2012 - Re: This was done back in the 70's

Hi Lesley. You are so right. It does feel so much better out than in. That initial shock is a big one though, especially when you realize that you spent the majority of your adult life believing a bunch of lies. It is very humbling and emotional. But once you get through the initial few months, it is soooo freeing. Like what realizing knowledge was imagined to be.

3rd May 2012 - Rawat insults local premie's wife

Hi Bob. You are so right in all you said. I, too, hope that my friend will sever his ties to Rawat. To insult a man's wife to his face is mean, cruel, and many other things. To do this to someone who has given so freely of his time and services over a very long time indicates to me that Rawat is spiraling totally out of control. I applaud my friend for sticking up for his wife and for his sense of indignation at Rawat's behavior.

Someone once said on this forum that exing begins with that first thought critical of Rawat. Rawat has certainly opened the crack in the door for this premie. Who can Rawat blame but himself for losing this one if he walks away?

Of course as quirky pointed out in a recent thread, he has a nearly endless supply of fresh meat for his con game in the world's prisons with his "Peace Education Program".

3rd May 2012 - Re: Rawat insults local premie's wife: oh-oh. I see a problem.

Well cq hopefully not. He knows that I post here, and didn't ask me not to tell anyone. I would say that he was venting to a sympathetic ear. I didn't mention him by name or service, so only he, Rawat, and I know who he is.

3rd May 2012 - Re: talk about a captive audience

It is so sad quirky. These people are so vulnerable, and Rawat is there to exploit this for his own selfish motives. I wonder if they let all cults recruit in prisons now. We lock up so many people in the US. I wish these prisoners well, and hope that they someday escape Rawat's clutches.

3rd May 2012 - Re: new camera

Letter from the Event Team: For a long time, our videos suffered from outdated, outmoded equipment. It drained our funds while leaving us with adequate, but not outstanding, footage. All of that has changed. With four top-of-the-line RED cameras, WOPG will ultimately save money while significantly increasing the quality of our videos, bringing us up to industry standards. A 100,000 Euro donation was used for the down payment on the RED cameras, and the remainder of the cost was covered with temporary financing. That short term financing now needs to be paid, and we need your help. Many thanks to Maharaji for his brilliance and forward thinking and to you who have made it possible!
The Event Team

Hi Gina. He already had one Red camera that was purchased with funds from a major donor meeting last year in L.A. He went through the whole speil about what it would do and the premies shelled out the money for him on the spot at that meeting. I guess one wasn't enough. He needs 4 more now?

17th May 2012 - Re: Prem Rawat's North American Tour and TPRF's Annual Report

My donation was in 2010, and was made to Words of Peace International.

25th June 2012 - Re: I'm confused and nosy

Ocker that is rude, and Freethinker, please do not feel obligated to reply. The internet makes things a little impersonal and people sometimes communicate in a forum in a manner that hopefully they do not in real life. You ask questions like that to a person's face and you might be asking for an ass whipping where I grew up. A little manners makes life a lot more pleasant. Can you try a little harder to be nice Ocker?

23rd July 2012 - Re: what will the premies do when Premier buys the farm?

I put my money on the child. [Prem Rawat's grandson] He has already been on stage at programs with Prem. I remember one such incident in Miami. I once met him at a golf tournament dinner where Premlata introduced me to him. He is a cute kid. I hope that he gets to grow up and hopefully have a life separate from the cult, but that probably won't happen.

23rd July 2012 - Re: Remember Community? Brotherly Love.

Reading this, I can't remember what I ever was thinking to be involved in such ridiculous bullshit.

7th August 2012 - Re: knowledge reviews

Thanks Lakeshore. Another very well written critique of a Rawat cult cornerstone tradition, the infamous "knowledge review". I can't even remember how many of these I attended just in case I was missing something. I wasn't. I always reverted to my own tried and true "ballpark" sort of techniques since they seemed to work better for me.

17th August 2012 - Re: Osho dissing another satguru -- one we all know

Not neccessarily, remember Shri Hans had 2 wives. Maybe the first wife was not as happy about the second marriage to Mata Ji as we have been told. She seems to have pretty well been edited out of the story by the powers that be in Rawat's organizations.

12th September 2012 - Re: Why I still meditate

Hi Steve. I too, still meditate though not as frequently nor for as long as I did as a practicing premie (which was only a year ago). I also do not meditate for all of the same reasons that I used to as a practicing premie. Although I still enjoy the experience, I no longer expect it to benefit me in the magical way that a practicing premie does. I used to expect meditation to prepare me for a higher stage of existence and of course for defeating death itself. I now feel this is ridiculous. In fact, I was recently flying and had a rough flight. I have flown countless miles over the years and have had a lot of disconcerting in flight experiences. I used to just meditate and pray also when I was having a bad flight. I still pray, but on this last flight as I was meditating I decided that if this was it for me, that I was going to take one last look around. It felt good using my senses to experience life. I personally now believe that seeing with the outer eyes and hearing with the outer ears is preferable. A little of the inner stuff in moderation probably isn't harmful. I prefer listening to a beautiful song with my outer ears to the inner stuff, though I do find meditation useful when I am agitated about something. I use it to help keep calm.

13th September 2012 - Re: Why I still meditate

You are probably right Aunt Bea. I am generally not afraid of dying until I perceive that it is staring me in the face. Then I am a coward for sure. I hope to put it off for a while yet.

13th September 2012 - Re: Why I still meditate

20% inner sounds excessive. Even Rawat only asks for 30 minutes twice a day now, or so I have heard.

19th September 2012 - Re: Is there really anyone like that?

I think the biggest impact the forum and other information on the web about Prem Rawat has, is in slowing down propagation. I have had 2 "aspirants" email me in the last couple months for my opinion about Rawat after reading the forum. They have decided not to proceed. Googling Prem Rawat provides a lot of unflattering hits.

19th September 2012 - Re: Is there really anyone like that?

I agree Lesley. Who knows, but I expect other defections. There will always be die hards, but the option is there for everyone to walk away. Some will, and good for them. Rawat will go on, but who cares? It isn't about him really. He is just another con man. It is about the ones who leave. Each one that escapes has his or her own value, and that is what makes it worthwhile. And we are here to make that leaving a little less scary and painful.

Some premies will read it and it will help them leave the cult, though probably most will never come to the forum because of the Rawat propaganda about it being the arm of a hate group.

Certainly most of us have other interests that occupy most of our time. What premies decide to do is their business, but I think the few minutes here and there that we exes spend on the forum do help provide an alternative viewpoint.

We also provide an example that helps reduce the fear of leaving. How many of us know and sang that cult song "Leaving your lotus feet, oh where would I go?" Premies have a lot of fear of leaving after all those years of conditioning. Well, we left and are doing just fine. It is an example and inspiration to others.

20th September 2012 - Re: Is there really anyone like that?

I agree Jim that in reality Premies have nothing to fear from exing. However, in their fantasy world they do. Remember that old cult favorite program song "Leaving your lotus feet, oh where would I go?" Remember the rotting vegetables B.S. that Rawat used to spout? That stuff is still in the subconscious if not the conscious minds of the premies. Their fear is based on ridiculous BS, but I think that it exists nonetheless.

20th September 2012 - Re: Is there really anyone like that?

I basically agree Jim. I still have daily interactions with premies that I have long term friendships with. I do care about them as individuals, and hope the best for them. I am not making excuses for them, but I understand their dilemma.

By the way if you are the Jim that was involved in starting the forum, which it appears that you are from the discussions above, thanks for taking the time and making the effort for whatever reason. Roger

20th September 2012 - Re: By the by …

Not that it's any of my business really, so forgive me if I'm out-of-bounds, but there was a suggestion a while back about you following up how your charitable donation to the Prem Rawat Foundation was spent (as is the right of any significant donor to any registered charity). I seem to remember Rawat said something about fearing that it might be wasted?

I've actually been thinking about doing that lately. It might be interesting to see what kind of a response (if any) I might get. One of these days I will get around to writing a letter doing as you suggest now, and has been suggested in the past. As a side note, the donation was to Words of Peace International, not the Prem Rawat Foundation.

21st September 2012 - Re: Residue of the Rawat Fantasy World

Hi Jasper. In response to your question, I still do have some cult residue and think some of the same stuff as you. It is just not as intense emotionally any more. I always had non premie friends and interests. I think this has helped me a lot, as there was not a total isolation when I left the cult. All the best to you Jasper.

21st September 2012 - Re: "It's all happening now" - notes from Amaroo

Thanks for the report Mike.

So Rawat wants all knowledge sessions to be in his voice per the Ditkoff blog quoted in Mike's post above. Knowledge, that "universal truth", can only best be spoken and imparted by Rawat's squeeky voice. What a self absorbed ridiculous, egotistical imposter!! Of course all this does is promote himself to the new victims. A perfect strategy for the head of a personality cult, but a terrible strategy for any real organization head.

When the message is the important thing and not the messenger, then any voice will do. When the messenger is a con man who has created a personality cult based upon himself acting like a man of peace in order to fleece the sincere, well then it makes perfect sense.

27th September 2012 - Feelings of Betrayal Are the Knives that cut through the bonds of devotion

Feelings of Betrayal, as painful as they may be, are the only knives sharp enough to cut through the carbon fiber reinforced steel chords of devotion to Rawat.

Only when the long time premie realizes that he/she has been betrayed by Rawat can the ex-ing process proceed.

This is similar to the process of divorce where the injured party processes the callousness and selfish behavior of the once loved partner. This includes processing the lies, deceit, and harmful action of the offending party. These may have gone on unnoticed for years, and emotional contentment continued in this state of ignorance. What is obvious to others is not so easily accepted by the partner still in love and fulfilling their commitment. There is an old saying that love is blind, and that is certainly true here.

And how has Rawat betrayed his premies? Let me count the ways, and believe me, this is far from a complete list.

He has claimed to be several things that he is not (Perfect Master, Incarnation of God greater than any past one - with all 64 powers, no less), just a simple human being, a spiritual teacher, a last breath savior, a hard working ambassador of peace, etc. who loves you and is always there for you.
He has financially fleeced his flock for decades to support his overtly materialistic lifestyle while hypocritically promoting renunciate and sevice lifestyles for his followers leaving many of them financially destitute.
He has presented himself as an expert on everything when in reality he is an expert at nothing other than cult propagation.
He has humiliated his followers by causing them to look like fools for being involved with him.
He has usurped his followers identities and merged them into his own, even still setting aside time for them to kiss his feet, even as the official cult position is that this doesn't happen any more.
He has belittled every effort made by his followers while never engaging in any worthwhile effort himself.
He has presented himself to his followers as a businessman when the only business he has ever run profitably was his little cult.
He has according to several reliable sources, cheated on his wife and had sex with multiple devotees.
He engages in blatant Nepotism in managing his cult.
He refuses to acknowledge and take responsibility for his mistakes. He blames his devotees for all his own mistakes.
He claims ownership of meditation techniques that are widely used and that no one can own, and then swears his devotees to secrecy about them.
He claims to have "Grace" and that this makes the techniques work. This is ridiculous. He has no grace. He is as he says when it suits him "a simple person".
He has engaged in Revisionism, blatantly denying his earlier incarnation as "Maharaj Ji".
He engages in a ceaseless PR campaign to deceive the premies into thinking that he is being widely recognized as a great humanitarian leader, when many if not all of the so called honors are staged, or involve deception of various types.
He denigrated his early followers by referring to them as people with drug problems when many of them did not even smoke pot, while at the same time engaging in a lifelong pattern of substance abuse.
Perhaps most egregiously, he failed to acknowledge and pursue justice for the children who were sexual abuse victims of one of his most influencial instructors, Mahatma Jagdeo.

Ultimately when the devotee has had enough and leaves, Rawat blames him/her for betraying him, leaving him/her with a parting gift of guilt.

Rawat is not who we thought he was when we became involved with him. He is undoubtedly the biggest hypocrit that I have ever met. I have faced that fact, and walked away.

If Rawat had one ounce of decency, he would admit his charade, and use his ill gotten gains to help (in some small way) all those premies that he has wounded. The fact that he has not done this, and probably never will, speaks volumes about the man.

28th September 2012 - Re: This is wrong, Swimming Free

Since Rawat explicitly took responsibility for propagation in the mid 80s, hardly anyone has joined the cult.

"Cult Propagation" was a poor choice of words on my part. The words should have been "cult perpetuation" to capture my intent. Then again, maybe I should have just left it as an expert at nothing. Roger

28th September 2012 - Re: 15 out of 17 Ain't Bad

Hi Lesley. I consider it high praise from Ocker that he found problems with only 2 items on my list to date. I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms here. All the best, Roger

1st October 2012 - Re: Right, Jethro!

Very well written post Lakeshore. I haven't asked for an accounting of my donation yet, but I intend to. I don't expect an honest reply though. Actually, it is probably best if Rawat squandered it. At least then the impact on attracting new people will be minimal. Roger

5th October 2012 - Re: Shame…

The shame doesn't easily go away even for an ex-premie. I still am ashamed of my Rawat cult involvement and as 13 noted, in another thread, many of us use forum names different than our real names in order to avoid the search engine "outing" that occurs if we use our real names.

Rawat, the "Ambassador of Peace" has too much baggage to be a real ambassador of peace. He would be a liabiliy and an embarassment to any real peace movement if his past were known. How effective would Charles Manson be as an ambassador of peace? Or Jerry Sandusky? Or any other number of individuals with nasty pasts.

To say nothing of the fact that Rawat "The Ambassador of Peace" can't even get along with his own family. How are you going to influence peace in the world if you can't even get along with your own brothers? He obviously hasn't bought in to his own message. Perhaps if it is awards he craves, we could bestow on him an "Ambassador of Hypocrisy" award.

9th October 2012 - Re: Unravelling emotions…

Hi NewDawn. Prior to your arrival on the forum, I was the most recent ex posting (I believe). I think that it has been a very healthy thing for me to engage in the forum discussions, and would recommend it to any exiting premie. Hopefully my posting is helpful to others as well. I know the postings of many others on the forum have been helpful to me. Some of the stuff in the archives is very helpful as well. A lot of very intelligent and eloquent people have formulated opinions and expressed themselves on the forum over the years. Forum posts are exposed to the light of day, and subject to scrutiny and comment from others. A lot is learned in this format vs. the Rawat "leave no room for doubt and Lila" based thought and analysis repression tactics. Forum posters may not always agree with you if you keep posting. Please don't let that keep you away, and don't let that alter your convictions. We are not a group, we are all individuals except for that one guy in the movie "The Life of Brian".

There are many different opinions on many different topics related to Mr. Rawat and the cult environment around him both historically and currently that are discussed in the forum. Some posters are passionate about their take on things and others more circumspect. This variety of opinions and attitudes is in my opinion, very healthy. You are now free to analyze, criticize, and even condemn any and all cult participants and activities if you so choose. You are also free to keep any good memories of people and events that occurred during your time of cult involvement. The choices are your own to make and enjoy. It will take time to unravel all of this. There is no real hurry. Enjoy your new dawn. Roger

13th October 2012 - Re: More dawnings

A couple years ago I was watching a few episodes of a TV series on criminal sociopaths. They were being interviewed by a professional psychologist. After interviewing them, he ranked them from 1-5 on the scale of evil with 5 being most evil. I particularly remember 2 interview segments with 2 different subjects.

The first interview segment was of a serial killer who had also tortured his victims. He was asked to rate himself on a scale of 1-5 on how evil he perceived himself to be. He thought about it a little bit and gave himself a 3. This was a man who had tortured and killed over 20 people. The interviewer pointed this out to him and asked him how he could believe that he was only a three. The serial killer responded that he had thought about killing even more people, and torturing his victims even more cruelly, but he didn't do those things. He felt that this compensated for some of the bad that he had done, and thus, he believed that he was only a 3.

The individual from the 2nd segment had imprisoned a young woman in his basement dungeon, and had tortured and raped her for several years. He repeatedly argued that he didn't think that he was a bad person at all, since he had given his victim a pillow and extra blanket when she complained of being cold and uncomfortable. He had also prepared food for her that she requested once. He repeatedly argued that he was not a bad person and was not even a 1 on this scale.

My point is, I doubt that Mr. Rawat thinks of himself as a bad person. I would expect that he believes that he has done some good and that this overshadows any harm that he has caused. I expect that he exaggerates the good and minimizes the harm in his own mind. This certainly would seem like sociopathic type behavior to me, although many posters on the forum have argued for use of the term narcissistic as pertains to Mr. Rawat. Regardless, neither term is very flattering.

29th October 2012 - Re: I think Rawat continues to "say" he's god

Lakeshore, you have once again hit the nail on the head. As recently as a little over a year ago when I ex-ed, Rawat was still privately portraying himself as divine, and so were the close minions surrounding him. These are all old time premies as I was, and are stuck in the old Lord of the Universe phase as I also was. There is an unspoken acceptance of him as the Lord no matter what the current public personna is. It is a wink wink thing with the insiders thinking that they sure have it over on those who are not allowed in on the secret of who Rawat really is. After over a year of thought, I have concluded that almost certainly Rawat knows and exploits this attitude. Sadly, those that think they know what is going on are the most ignorant. They are the suckers that Rawat bleeds for the support of his egomaniacal peace scam which he continues to conduct from the cockpit of his luxury jet, which means far more to him than any of his "premies" ever could. I have realized based upon my many interactions with him over many years, that he is desperate for acceptance outside the premie circle. I believe that this is because he understands that the love and acceptance that he receives from premies is based upon a false premise. What he really craves is acceptance from the general population, which he can never have since he is a fraud. This is why he has TPRF and has people coordinate all his phony awards.

2nd November 2012 - Re: hey hamzen

I agree totally with your assessment of Ocker's often combative nature on the forum. I wonder how many ex-es that read here, but who don't post, would post if they weren't so leary of attacks like Ocker's. And I also wonder how many people checking out the forum decide it isn't for them after reading some of the combatitive, egotistical, insensitive, and obnoxious comments that get interspersed with genuinely useful material.

2nd November 2012 - Re: Ocker and the Phoenix

I enjoy your posts Newdawn and I am delighted that you have decided to continue to participate on the forum. You are very insightful for such a new "leaver".

3rd November 2012 - Re: Michael Nouri arrested on domestic violence charge….

I watched that snippet of Michael Nouri in Peace is Possible. What drivel!!!! Notice his eyes shifting to the side and down and staring into space as he struggles to find inane comments to say about the so called "Peace" offered by Prem Rawat.

"When I go out into the World" what a ridiculous statement!!! As if he could come and go into the world as he pleases. Where does he think he is when he is meditating? This conceptual separation of inner and outer "worlds" is at the heart of the damage done by Prem Rawat to every individual that accepts his BS into his/her life.

There is Michael Nouri, a mini celebrity, hawking a cult as a spokesperson, as if he were Tom Cruise or something pushing Scientology.

Fortunately for Michael, Rawat has been reaching out to prisoners in jail and offering them the "possibility of peace", so his life should continue on blissfully. Now if he could only learn how to play nice when he goes "Out into the world", instead of apparantly slapping his girlfriend around. I suppose he did it lovingly. Maybe he was using the Fakiranand knowledge session technique used on Pat Halley to help bring her to "Knowledge".

4th November 2012 - Welcome to the forum Howard

With regard to Marilyn, it seems that of the present posters, that Jasper has had the most interaction. Perhaps he will see your post and respond to it.

The last time that I saw Marilyn, she was sitting next to Rawat at a Major Donor fundraiser in Miami about 2 years ago. She did not interact with Rawat or the crowd verbally, but I remember her looking at me with a very puzzled look on her face. She certainly knew who I was, so I was puzzled right back about it. When she left the stage, she was very unstable on her feet. I had heard that she had hip problems and had some trouble walking, though I can't confirm that this was the reason for her instability. As unstable as she looked as she navigated the stairs of the stage, Rawat made no attempt to help her or prevent her from falling. Thankfully she did not fall and hurt herself. I have not seen her since, as I ex-ed several months after that event. I did see 3 of her children and talked with all of them a few months later at a TPRF golf fundraising dinner in Malibu. This was about a month before I ex-ed. They seem to be doing OK. I am sure being the child of a cult leader is not all fun and games. Interestingly, Marilyn did not attend this event. Neither did Rawat even though it occurred a few miles from his Malibu mansion.

4th November 2012 - Re: What we lose and what we don’t have to lose by Ex-ing

Hi Mike. Nice to see you posting here again. You obviously put a lot of effort into your posts and they are very interesting and well presented.

I remember you from the DECA days though we did not interact much as you were in the CRA side of the operation as I recall and I was in aviation. Happy to hear that you went on to have a successful career. All the best, Roger.

6th November 2012 - Re: My heart skipped a beat!

Hi Lakeshore. Just wanted to let you know that a recent ex-premie friend of mine who reads here mentioned that she enjoys your posts, as of course I do myself. Please keep them coming. Also, I have sent a letter asking for an accounting of my donation. The initial response that I have received has been a text message that promised a full accounting. We will see

7th November 2012 - Re: My heart skipped a beat!

"low level zoned out duds" ? I don't think that this is objectively universally true. It is not generally true in my experience. I know a lot of successful premies, several who are very active in charities outside Rawat's "charities". Edrek pointed out in some recent post about how believing in one delusion or another can actually allow a person to be optimistic, motivated, and self confident. These are all qualities that tend to lead to success.

Perhaps you have noticed on facebook that most premies seem to be quite liberal leaning Democrats, and you base your comments on this observation.

Also remember that the vast majority of premies become ex-premies, so they are not too zoned out.

7th November 2012 - Re: Belated welcome to the forum!

Hi Bob. I would agree with your assessment that "knowledge is probably neatly compartmentalized" for the many talented energetic premies, some of whom I personally know are involved in non-Rawat charities. Of course many if not most of Rawat's followers consider involvement in non-Rawat charities a total waste.

I know for myself, that knowledge was neatly compartmentalized during my time in the cult. This compartmentalization, I would imagine, is common to all cults, of which we were involved in just one example. I mean, Tom Cruise is in my opinion, a good actor, despite his cult involvement in Scientology. I think that you could make a good case for Mormons being cult members, and many of them are very successful as well. Etc.

9th November 2012 - Re: The two Rawats and the one big lie.

Wow Jasper. You have so poignantly described your delusion. When I read your post I felt as if you described my own delusion as well in words I have not been able to find myself. To be giving one's life and resources to Rawat and simultaneously feeling priveleged to do it. That is the life of a "premie". It hurts for sure, but we are out of it. All the best Jasper. Roger

11th November 2012 - Re: "Blessings to all the Premies" A disgusting Rawat phrase.

Ah yes Lakeshore, "Holy Breath". Another misrepresentation and misunderstanding propagated by confused premies and Mahatmas. Of course during my first trip through the darshan line, I put my hand to my ear as I was told to do, and as any good premie did, to get that "Holy Breath". And of course Rawat sat there "god-like" giving it. Sometimes lately, I almost feel like laughing my ass off at the ridiculousness of it all.

11th November 2012 - Re: Holy Breath

I am laughing my *ss off at your post Brian. It certainly seems that you got "more than your fair share of hot air." Didn't we all.

15th November 2012 - Re: 5 hour energy drink

Based upon my own research, this is what I think happened with the 5 hr. energy drink. This guy Bhargava appears to be indeed the guy behind the success of this company. This is quoted in the press. What is also quoted is that he made a large donation of company shares to Hanslok Ashram. I don't think that Bhole ji was involved at the time of the original donation. I think it was Sat Pal. I think this because early lawsuits against the 5 hr drink listed "Amrita Rawat" as a codefendent. This is the name of Sat Pal's wife I believe.

At some point, Bhole ji shows up as the man in charge of the shares gifted to the Indian Charity. I find this curious. I wonder if this change in control happened peacefully. Then it appears that there may have been a break between Sat Pal and Bhole Ji. Could it have been over control of these shares? Perhaps. Anyway, Bhole Ji shared "his success" with Raja Ji.

Raja Ji was approached by Linda P. last year, according to a source in the know at a party for Raja Ji. She requested money for TPRF from Raja Ji. She was told by R.J. that the money belonged to a charity with a board of directors, and that he couldn't give it to TPRF.

I wonder if what we have here is a charity that is being used as the personal piggy bank of Bhole Ji. He may not actually own any shares personally, unless he received some as compensation for services offered to the charity. The Fortune article that Steve referenced months ago would tend to support this conclusion.

This is a different story than R.J. told me last year before I ex-ed. Somehow, I think R.J. left some details out of his story in my discussions with him. It would be interesting if an investigative journalist looked into this to get at the truth. I hope it is not another case of a Rawat abusing the charity and generosity of others.

17th November 2012 - Re: The void

When I stopped believing in Santa Claus as a child, I became no happier or sadder than before. It was just that the delusion no longer existed. When I stopped believing in Prem Rawat the exact same thing happened. In reality, I was no happier or sadder than before. It was just that the delusion no longer existed. I did not choose to stop believing in Santa Claus. Reality crept in to destroy the delusion. The same thing happened to me with Prem Rawat. I had to learn to deal with reality. Reality is not always pleasant, but is, I believe, the only reasonable alternative. Once the delusion is shattered, it is too broken to ever put back together again, even if a person wanted to, which I for one, do not.

The big difference between the Santa Claus and Prem Rawat delusions is that I have pleasant memories of my Santa Claus delusion. It was pretty harmless I think.

In contrast, memories of my Prem Rawat delusion are not so pleasant. I believe that the Prem Rawat delusion is very toxic to the individual. Foot Kissing, ass kissing, mind numbing drivel listening, constant exposure to criticism of our reasoning mind, financial exploitation, etc. It takes time to barf this all out of our system. I am still barfing up Rawat's lingering influences on my mind, emotions, attitudes, etc. after over a year out. Insightful posts by other exes on this forum have been and continue to be useful to this process.

17th November 2012 - Re: The big man in the red suit

Hi Lesley. Well, I did say pretty harmless as regards Santa. You are probably right that the Santa delusion may cause more harm than first appears to be the case. I will say that I am not personally suffering any Santa delusion side effects at this point to my knowledge. That said, I didn't foist it on my children nor did I try to disillusion others. It seems that the Santa delusion goes away of its own. However the Rawat delusion is peskier and more difficult to shake.

I do have good memories from the almost 40 years that I spent in the cult, but they were my own personal experiences and the memories resulting from the development of close personal friends that I met through the cult. Most of my good memories from that time are from non cult related activities. Amazingly, most of these premie friends beat me out of the cult, and several have followed on my heels.

I do not have good memories of Mr. Rawat. He looks different now that I have taken off the rose colored glasses. At this time, I think that I am angriest at him for denying his past, and in so doing, denying mine as well. The current cult revisionism is sickening and premies participation in it discourages me.

The Jewish people have it right to create memorials of rememberance. It makes it more difficult for apologists to get away with their crimes.

26th November 2012 - Re: and…

Since early lawsuits years ago listed Amrita Rawat as a co-defendant, and since a woman by that name is apparently Sat Pal's wife, Bal Bhagwan must be involved somehow. My guess is that he was the early beneficiary of the "Hans" donation from the 5 hour founder, since Bhole Ji had no standing in the Rawat family at the time of the "drink" founder's initial involvement with the Rawat family. Control has apparantly shifted to Bhole Ji. This may or may not have been a peaceful shift of asset control.

28th November 2012 - Re: and…

It may be genuine, but using charity money to build private mansions and acquire a top of the line executive aircraft is a bit shady in my book. Certainly not a first in the Rawat family.

18th December 2012 - Re: and…

Just tracked down the year of the split between Bhole Ji Rawat and Sat Pal Rawat. 2009 according to a SatPal site. This is the same year that the big 5 hour energy donation was made to some Rawat entity. SatPal must not have been happy with who ended up with it since I doubt that this split timing is coincidence.

29th November 2012 - Re: Idiot kid's first 707 tour fiasco.

Hi Bill. Amazingly, Reeves the gold plating culprit is still alive and doing well. I suspect he takes much better care of his health now as he recently tracked me down and called to ask me a few questions pertaining to his green environmental firm. He is a nice man. I don't know his premie status, and it is none of my business, but he sounded fine on the phone. I don't recall seeing him at programs in recent years, but then we are all so much older that we are getting hard to recognize based on old memories.

30th November 2012 - Re: Idiot kid's first 707 tour fiasco.

Hi Bill. There were so many premies around Miami then with whom I was interacting that I am afraid that I have forgotten or misplaced some in my memory. Unfortunately Chris is one of those though I remember chatting with several premies from the trailer park across the street from the DECA complex courtyard. All the best Bill. Roger

9th December 2012 - Re: POP doesn't stand for Palace of Peace but Prisoners of Peace

That is so observant Lesley. Premies rely so much on each other to keep their delusions of Rawat's divinity alive. Sharing this delusion with each other strengthens their delusion in the face of constant erosion from reality wearing it down.

12th December 2012 - Re: Darshan Dream

Hi Quirky. I too still have darshan dreams, though they are becoming less frequent. I won't go into detail on them here, but they are usually along the theme of Prem Rawat begging me to come back into the fold. I don't understand dreams at all, and don't try to really, but I have them and some of them affect me for days. As several posters noted, there is a lot of subconscious mental residue from our prior cult involvement.

Possibly the worst aspect of our former cult involvement was the displacement of love that we would have normally shared with our friends and families onto Rawat. We are still digging out from that every day in our subconscious mind it seems to me. Thus the dreams. Anyway, a very courageous post Quirky and all the best to you. Roger

24th December 2012 - Re: The scent of a guru

At a couple of programmes in the early eighties I helped in the stage/back stage area and also once or twice at the Reigate Rez. I have a distinct memory of some special perfume or fragrance used around Rawat areas (also darshan tunnels and the like) because he supposedly liked it…gardenia or some such essence. Does anyone else remember this ?

Yes, Gardenias it was. They have a beautiful aroma. I planted 20 of them around my house back in the day in case any were needed when Rawat came to Miami.

24th December 2012 - Re: Gradations of Premiedom

great post Anthony. I don't know many (any?) premies personally from after the 70's. I guess us old timers segregated ourselves out from the newbies. The inner circle all seems to be old timers.

While Rawat may prefer publicly to distance himself from his past, he privately courts favor of the old timers since they account for most of his revenue and "service" staff.

25th December 2012 - Re: A movie based upon the fortunes of the 4 Sons of Shri SatPuPu Hans

Well those are some strikes against RJ [Raja Rawat, Prem Rawat's youngest elder brother]for sure Bill. However, I don't think this BJ success is all on the up and up. I think that it is at the heart of the breakup between SatPal and BJ. Follow the money, and find the reason I would think. BJ may actually be his own guru now, so there may be three of them. It does appear that BJ is jetting around the world in his Global 5000 funded by the charitable donation of the energy drink founder. I wonder if this is what he had in mind for his charitable donation, to help the poor in India I believe it was.

27th December 2012 - Re: An interesting ex-TM parallel


Very interesting Steve. Thanks for posting that. So often as a premie I felt like I had been so lucky to find the true "Perfect Master" even though I had no reference to a concept such as "Perfect Master" until I was introduced to it by the young "Maharaj Ji". Therefore I had no way to tell a real one from a fake. The joke is, that they are all fake. I remember thinking how lucky I was to have the real master and not a fake like the Maharishi, or Rev. Moon etc.. I suppose they used to think the same about us fools.

This concept of a "Perfect Master" is a made for a scam "Perfect Concept". Introduce a new phrase to people that is so vague that it can never be defined and then give it your own spin. Perfection as defined by the boy Guru. "Wherever one spark strikes-- Perfect. That knowledge, I have it here." The young Rawat and his early followers, his family, and his "Mahatmas" were all as deluded as the next group of TMers, Moonies, Scientologists, and whatever from the get go.

The group think and group pressures mentioned in this article are so similar to Rawat's techniques. The difficulty in walking away with so much invested in time and rescources is also familiar. Not an easy thing to do.

Thanks for the link, Steve.

27th December 2012 - Re: What a dream!

It must have been satisfying to be a thorn in the side of yet another Rawat, even if in a dream. That whole family was in on it from the get go. They are all parasites on the human condition as far as I can tell. I have had a couple protest dreams myself. I am glad that I am now also subconsciously consistent with my conscious oppostion to all things Rawat. All the best John

27th December 2012 - Re: Out with

Edrek, the accursed one caused many family disasters for exactly the reason you state. john miller for one, was the guy rawat had as his personal servant, and he wouldnt let john go to his father as he died, and he wouldnt let him go to the funeral. true story.

Amazingly, John Miller still hangs out with Rawat according to local Miami accounts.

30th December 2012 - Re: Paving the Way

"Full speed adrift!!!" shouted Captain Rawat into the teeth of the storming gale. Later, in his luxury cabin with his brain dead brain trust he proclaimed "Now that we have lost our direction, I have decided that we must redouble our efforts". And of course, "Stay on the boat and send help, errr I mean money".

Thanks for another very observant post Lakeshore.