Swimming Free's Posts - 2011

"Swimming Free" is a former devotee of Prem Rawat's whose story is unusual to say the least. One of the things that make him unusual is that in 2010 he donated $5.5 million to Prem Rawat shortly before he realised Rawat was a fake. He didn't quite make the grade as a $6 million man but I call him that to pique readers' curiosity.

2nd October 2011 - new to the forum

I am new to the forum. I am interested in why there are no recent journeys published. Most are from the late 90's or early 2000's. Are you still accepting new journeys?

3rd October 2011 - Re: new to the forum

I don't think it was any one drip. 40 years is a long time. I guess it may have been a river where the dam finally broke through my subconscious mind into my conscious mind.

However, that said, I have been turned off by the constant focus on fundraising for a while, but the last major donor conference was especially distasteful when they introduced an attorney to talk about writing our wills and giving consideration to all the various Rawat related entities. Especially the part about making sure that a copy of the will was safely in the hands of someone other than a family member since a family member might not carry out our wishes.

Then after returning home, I googled my own name to see if an article that had been written about me and which I had been given the opportunity to proof read, had been published yet, since my father wanted to read it and is old and not in very good health. Low and behold my name came up on the ex-premie forum. I had never gone there before, but I decided to read the parts where i was referenced, (which were not very flattering by the way) Haha. I then went on to read some of the journeys and best of the forums. I knew some of the posters, and have always respected them as fine human beings, and therefore could not easily dismiss their claims. I think the last drip was an entry that confirmed a sexual exploit by Prem Rawat of a person that I knew very well many years ago. I had been aspirant coordinator in the community when this person had been an aspirant and received knowledge. I had suspected as much I guess, but just never thought about it or consciously acknowledged my suspicions. Coming face to face with this really shook me. I think sexually exploiting someone is worse than financially exploiting them.

anyway this was a couple weeks ago. It has been a period of turmoil for me because my interactions with Mr. Rawat have all been pleasant and my experience in meditation has been and continues to be very rewarding and enjoyable. Right now I am not angry at Mr. Rawat as some are in this forum. I am just very disappointed in Mr. Rawat I guess. There are other things, but I will save that for a later time.

3rd October 2011 - Re: new to the forum

Thanks Angela and all who have welcomed me. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the people who posted their journeys and also their thoughts in the forum over the years. They are very helpful to those in the process of wiggling free. I intend to post a few thoughts and my journey at some future point in the hope that it may be helpful to others. I am not ready to do so yet at this time as when I do, I want to be ready to use my real name. I have many good friends who are still active in the Rawat movement, and out of respect for them, I want to tell them personally about my recent decision to not only leave, but to post on this site. Again, thanks to all and especially JHB

3rd October 2011 - Re: Hi there swimming free

Thanks Marianne. I am sorry to hear that you and others in this forum were treated so poorly by the Rawat organizations and some of his followers. That is shameful behavior that I am sure the majority of premies would not condone, or perhaps I am in lala land. To hear this deepens my resolve to assist others like us who exercise their freedom of choice in living their own lives independent of Mr. Rawat.

3rd October 2011 - Re: A warm welcome…..

Thanks Jasper. I do remember some of your posts and they were indeed informative and helpful. I will post more about my story in the coming days. Hopefully it will help others with their transitions from the cult. It is inevitable that I will not be the last to leave.

4th October 2011 - Re: Non disclosure agreements

Hi Karen. Thanks for the welcome. In response to your question "did I ever sign a nondisclosure statement?" No. I was not an x rated premie and was not involved socially with Mr. Rawat other than at a few impersonal parties in the courtyard at the residence. My contacts with Mr. Rawat were all related to service projects that I worked on for him starting back in the DECA days and continuing with my involvement as a Major Donor most recently. In fact I didn't even know that there was such a thing as x rating until I recently started reading the forum.

4th October 2011 - Re: Life is so good without Maharaji…

Hi Cynthia and thanks for the welcome. I remember some of your posts and remember your bad feelings about DECA. I worked there starting in about February of 1980 it must have been. The airplane was already well underway when I arrived. I was summoned because I was an engineer with experience in the field of fluid mechanics, and Mr. Rawat wanted to redesign the Holi gun system. My first meetings were with him regarding this project. I redesigned the system and we had many practice sessions in the courtyard. I actually had a lot of fun doing this and also going to India to build the new system there later that year. I met many lifelong friends at DECA. There were so many very talented people there. I continued working at DECA after delivery of the 707 until it closed at which time it was bought by an Israeli company named Jetborne. I remained as the general manager of the new company and eventually became its president. The new company name was Aircraft Modular Products. Jetborne had several other divisions and was a publicly traded company. It fell on hard financial times in late 1990 and myself and several of the employees plus some friends purchased the A.M.P. subsidiary of the company. I continued as the president and majority shareholder until the company was sold in 1998. Myself and all of the shareholders in the company, including Mr. Rawat did quite well financially with the sale.

I know that you posted that you worked with Guy Rollins and I am trying to recall you. Anyway we must have met as I worked with Guy quite a bit. He was a very nice person by my estimation, and I hope he is doing well.

I am probably the person in this forum with the most knowledge of DECA post 707. I would be willing to answer questions regarding DECA to my best ability. I am probably not so anonymous to some of you after this post, but it is probably a nice way to get started.

5th October 2011 - Re: DECA…

Lakeshore, your post about the jewelry donations reminded me of 1973 when Bhole Ji was touring with Blue Aquarius leading up to Millinium. I was living in Kansas City with my wife. We had received a large beautiful silver service set for our wedding presents. My wife's family were quite rich and generous. Anyway ,my wife loaned the service to the ashram to be used for Bhole Ji while he was in town. After he left we were informed that someone had decided the service was to nice for premies and it had been sent on to Denver. My wife was furious as was her family. The incident contributed greatly to our divorce a couple years later. My wife and her family wanted to press charges for theft, but I talked them out of it. I thought I could get someone to give it back. No such luck.

That leads to another topic. Bhole Ji is not a broke taxi driver as i read in the forum archives. He is the primary owner of the 5 hour energy drink. He has cut R.J. in on the action and they are both now fabulously wealthy. I like R.J. and am happy for him. I had cappucino with him a couple weeks ago at his place and heard the story from him first hand. We didn't discuss it, but I think he may not be getting along with Mr. Rawat very well at this point based on the local rumors. Anyway they are both very involved in charity work in India. R.J. said they are building a children's hospital there.

5th October 2011 - Re: Re: DECA…

Thanks for your support Lakeshore. The "charged nature" of your comments did not bother me at all. I didn't see them even as charged. I am sure I will be getting some real charged comments in the coming days and weeks, mostly if not entirely outside this forum.

Your comments about the abuses of the ashram system strike home. I was never an ashram premie since I had a $200 per month child support payment after my divorce. People with debts were not allowed to move into the ashram. Not to be denied, I chose to live an ashram lifestyle outside the ashram. This gave me the "best" of both worlds. I didn't get good seats at programs, but that got rectified later. I had financial independence though until I moved to DECA. I was promised a salary there so that I would be able to pay my child support. However, I never received it the first year or so and was not able to pay my child support. I stuck it out anyway, but suffered in that I was not able to see or talk to my young son for 2 years until a new manager of DECA put me on the payroll. Fortunately I was able to later recconnect with him and we now have a great relationship. He is not a premie, and is very understandably anti Maharaj Ji.

After my divorce, I never dated until just before DECA closed. All those years of celibacy made it very hard to talk to females at first, but I made it back to a normal relationship in time.

When DECA was sold, it closed so fast that all of the documents relating to the company were left in boxes and filing cabinets in various locations. The new non premie owners started reading them and were incredulous. They had been an aviation customer, and had no idea what was going on. The new owners had hired me to be the general manager of the new company, and I felt it was in the best interests of everyone to clear the slate. So the first night in my new job I destoyed all the old files. But not before I reviewed the very confidential payroll records. What I saw pissed me off, but I kept it to myself all these years. There were certain premies making big salaries for that time, and it was not the ones who should have been. The ones that stick in my mind were the 2 older Indian civil engineers who passed themselves off as experts. The others I will not say.

I do not remember the toxic chemicals being pervasive,but early on they may have been. I am sure there were people exposed to organic cleaners like acetone and MEK and these can certainly be hazardous. The plating shop was a disaster which i personally took upon myself to get environmentally cleaned up when I arrived. The hanger paint crew undoubtedly had the most toxic exposure to both the sanding dust and chemical strippers as well as the aircraft paint itself. I do remember them wearing protective clothing when I was there. I don't remember much about the cabinet finish shop, but that could have been a source of chemical exposure. It is a shame that premies suffered from chemical exposure even to the point of cancer and death. Certainly one the first persons to be brought into DECA should have been a knowledgeable safety officer. Sadly that was not done.

I am sure there was no OSHA insurance at first, since there wasn't a payroll per se. However, in the later years of DECA, the last Manager, Lem Lasher had cleaned things up pretty well. Of course, that is no consolation to the early arrivals who I am sure had the benefit of very little of anything.

One of the first problems that I encountered after the sale of DECA to Jetborne, in my new job at Jetborne was premies still wanting to come to the complex and do service. I had to explain to them that they could no longer come and do this. They also wanted to remove materials. There were only a few employees retained in the seat and cabinet shops. The hanger was closed. I had to fire most of the premies because they could not adapt to a real job. This made me very unpopular in the local community, so I quit going to local events. I saw no reason to subject myself to the abuse. I have not been to a local event since. I felt I could always watch a video at home. This probably saved me much wasted time and effort. I still stayed very involved on the national level though and continued my contacts with Mr. Rawat.

DECA was certainly not all roses, but when given lemons make lemonade as they say. I eventually made a lot of lemonade.

The last thing I will ever consider myself is a victim. I believe that such thoughts totally disempower the individual. I think it is important to try to succeed in spite of our obstacles rather than fail because of them.

5th October 2011 - Re: Question re DECA post 707

The People who got rich off A.M.P. owe nothing to no one. We purchased the company from Jetborne for 10.7 million dollars. We succeeded from our own efforts. We are enjoying the fruits of our efforts, and speaking for myself, I have no guilt as was suggested in a post somewhere in the forum archives. There are actually several other premie businesses that became very successful that were started by ex DECA premies. I don't believe that they owe anything to anyone either any more than anything that you have accomplished after you left DECA is owed to anyone who worked there.

I don't know who got the money Jetborne paid for DECA. I was told it was about $250,000

Interestingly, the same thing was suggested by premies to Mr. Rawat, and I was told that he said credit for the success of AMP should be given to the people who worked there, not to him.

5th October 2011 - Re: Am I missing something?

Joe you are being very accusatory. Your logic is extremely flawed. People worked at DECA. People worked at Jetborne. People worked at A.M.P. Each of these were distinct separate unrelated entities. Some of the DECA workers ended up purchasing A.M.P. from Jetborne which was in no way related to Mr. Rawat. The company at this point no longer resembled DECA other than that it was in the same facility. It was manufacturing aircraft seats and cabinetry and had no hanger. The products in no way resembled the products produced at DECA. There were probably about 10 former DECA employees who went from the transition from DECA to Jetborne and then to A.M.P. The company is now owned by B.E. Aerospace. and many of the same people now work for B.E. Aerospace. So by your logic since they have also bought the DECA legacy it also belongs to them as well. I can get their address for you so that you can discuss this with them as well.

My girlfriend by the way read your post and was offended. She is of African descent and her ancestors were true slaves having been brought here against their will. I do not condone what happened at DECA, but it was not slavery as we engaged in our activities at DECA of our own free will as deluded as we may have been.

5th October 2011 - Re: Sorry, don't mean to be offensive, but

Joe, I have learned something from every job that I have ever had including growing up on my family's dairy farm. I worked longer hours there for about the same pay that I worked at DECA which was subsistance, but I survived. I lugged quarters of beef in the summers while going to college and have joint problems probably due to that, but I survived. I had good jobs and bad, but I always tried to give it my best and at least learn from it. I think all of us at DECA learned things for better or worse. Hopefully when DECA ended the people that worked there had learned something that helped them in their later careers. I expect that many did, and if they were able to take something away with them that is to their credit.

I sympathize with the ashram premies who were treated very badly throughout the whole process. Although some complain about the ashrams being shut down, I think it was a merciful ending to a bad situation.

And relax Joe, I don't hold you responsible for any bad experiences I may have had while you were community coordinator in Miami. In fact I will come to your support if anyone tries to blame you for their problems during your time in charge.

I think it is important to maintain a sense of humor in all this. Last night, my girlfriend and I were having a couple beers and some buffalo wings while she was looking up Lord of the Universe on her I Pad. The field was actually crowded, but she noticed that there were no Lordesses of the Universe. She is currently enamoured with the idea of becoming Lordess of the universe since the job appears to have a lot of benefits. A palace on the hills, airplanes, yachts etc. I am thinking of getting her a nice Krishna costume for fantasy fest in Key West. Let her see if she likes it. She is a little worried about making too much money though because she read that qoute from Mr. Rawat about how hard it is to be rich. You know the one about it takes a million to protect the first million and then another 2 to protect that etc. She can't believe that anyone would actually say such a thing in public expecting sympathy i guess. She is an ex aspirant by the way.

I am so glad no one was filming me and writing down things I said giving satsang years ago. I probably said some things I would not want to hear repeated today. I am sure I would feel even stupider than I do about it.

5th October 2011 - Re: Sorry, don't mean to be offensive, but

If that is what Joe is asking, then definitely I believe they should have. The money should have been used if possible to reintegrate the workers unable to find jobs back into society. There wouldn't have been enough to pay back wages, reimburse donations, etc. But should Jetborne, AMP, or now BE Aerospace have done that? No. That is my opinion. Others are entitled to theirs.

6th October 2011 - Re: ..and here is another opinion

Jethro, Yes you are entitled to your opinion, as ignorant as it is. Go lay your guilt trip on someone else. I have had enough guilt shit thrown at me in my life.

6th October 2011 - Re: I was afraid this would happen.

Thank you JHB. You expressed my views on the subject accurately and succinctly. I did not however give Mr. Rawat stock. He bought it for the same price paid by all investors. It would have been inappropriate for me to give him stock at that time as there were numerous non premie shareholders, and the vast majority of employees didn't even know that he existed. I at least showed a little sense at that time.

6th October 2011 - Re: Am I missing something?

Cynthia, I still agree with my girlfriend that slavery is not the correct word for the abusive relationship that existed in the ashrams and at DECA for some. I would not say that I experienced slavery personally at DECA. I would call my experience Delusional Volunteerism.

You are right that living an ashram lifestyle outside the ashram is different than in it, and I am thankful that I did not live in the ashram.

You are also right that I do not have direct knowledge of premies who became sick and even died as a result of chemical exposure or overwork at DECA. There was one premie who worked for me that filed and collected several workers compensation claims related to his knees which he said were damaged laying carpet for Mr. Rawat. He received a pretty good settlement from our insurance company as I recall.

I have no direct knowledge of any others that come to mind. I am at least mildly surprised that no one approached me personally about this issue in all these years. Hopefully the sick and injured premies have recovered. I guess not all did as you say some died. I didn't know all the premies that worked there, that is for sure, but don't recall any deaths that I was informed of.

7th October 2011 - Re: Am I missing something?

Thank you for your support Cynthia. the rest of this post addresses several issues and is not directed to Cynthia per se.

First let me address the issue of my post about my girlfriend of African descent reading the forum and being offended about the use of the word slavery. One of the earlier posters suggested that she should express herself here on her own which after reading lonecats post she said she intends to do. Therefore I don't feel like discussing the slavery issue too much further at this point.

I do believe that we in the forum should be sensitive to other people's reactions to words that evoke negative feelings in them. Several posters expressed their dislike for the phrase delusional volunteerism to be used instead of the word slavery. So don't use it if you don't like it. Maybe one of the cult experts has already dealt with this issue and has come up with a much better phrase. I won't use it myself since some of you find it offensive.

But I won't use or condone the use of the word slavery in this forum unless it is used in a way that explicitly qualifies it as a distinctly different sort of slavery than what decendants of African slaves consider it to mean.

After all Joe, when you bitched about the conditions at DECA, you were simply fired. You were not beaten, sold, or killed as you would have been in the more commonly understood conditions of slavery. And thank goodness for that. You obviously suffered in other ways as most if not all of the DECA workers did as well. I in no way intend to minimize or obfuscate that.

With regards to my earlier comment about not considering myself a victim. Well, that is my own coping mechanism of trying to take control over my future and not have my future determined by the negative things in my past. I did not mean to say that you, I, and others were not victims of the cult. However, that said, when I die, I would like to have left a legacy as having been something other than a cult victim. In my opinion, there is no better time to start working on that legacy than now because i Know that I am so much more than a cult victim.

All the best to all of you.

By the way Joe, you seem to have a particular hard on for me. Do you remember me as one of the assholes from DECA that you referred to in an earlier post? I have tried hard to remember even one person from DECA that I would refer to as an asshole except maybe this one Indian engineer. There were a lot of really beautiful people there.

7th October 2011 - Re: Anybody ever meet the Space Ship guy?

Yes Karen, The space ship guy did exist. He was given a space to work on the 2nd floor of the back building not too far from where the evening food buffet was served for premies working late at the complex. He was a fraud though he did meet with Mr. Rawat and piqued his interest and was given his approval to set up an area there. He claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine that he was adapting to become a spaceship engine. It was a simple gyroscope that any physics or engineering student had studied in lab. He defrauded some premies out of some money which pissed off an engineering friend of mine who worked there and he ran him off.

7th October 2011 - Re: I think the odds are shortening

Kelly, I do in fact know of others wavering, and once my situation is widely known in the premie world it may indeed hopefully encourage others to follow suit. But like other posters above noted, they don't expect it to be a high percentage and neither do I for now. But every person who manages to get free is a victory and an inspiration to others.

There are fewer and fewer premies to shoulder the financial burden of supporting Mr. Rawat. The financial pressures on the remaining premies is escalating and will drive more away. Purchasing the new Gulfstream 650 will put a huge financial strain on the premies rescources. It is sad to think that many premies will compromise their families financial stability to carry out this folly.

Regarding those that leave, I don't think many of them will post on the forum though. I'm actually pretty easy going and thick skinned as old timer, lakeshore, Jasper, Cultfree JHB and others encouraged me to be. Most of the posters were very supportive, but some of the welcomes seemed a little harsh. I would suggest treating all recent exes like me in a little less confrontational manner or you will probably drive some away at least from the forum. That said, I am still fair game for all who post here. I can leave any time I want if I don't like it. But be warned, if you take shots at me I will probably fire right back unless I feel the shot is so lame that it does't even deserve a response.

9th October 2011 - Re: Delusional Volunteerism - or making a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

Agreed cq. I think you have made a great post. We were deceived delusional volunteers. And we could probably be described in many other accurate terms as well.

9th October 2011 - Re: Ah but

Well, who knows what the $2 Million is really for. I don't. But I heard it from Mr. Rawat's own mouth at a Major Donor meeting that he had ordered the G650. Actually, I think he said "we" had ordered it.

9th October 2011 - Re: A Harsh welcome…and my warm accolades

First let me say thank you for your post Joe. It was a couple of your posts in the forum archives that contributed to helping me wiggle free and I owe a big debt of gratitude to you and the other posters for that.

With regards to your question about people that I know who are wavering and if they talk about it, and if so, what has caused them to waver, i will adress these issues below.

First, I need to be a little cautious at this time, and make sure that I do not discuss matters that were discussed in private in a public way that may offend my friends. Thus I will speak in only general terms at this time.

I have spoken only to a few of my premie friends about having left the cult at this time. The reaction I recieved in all cases was one of total disbelief and shock. But it was not negative. All expressed their desire to continue their friendship with me. They all asked if I had stopped meditating and I informed them that I had not and didn't intend to as I had always enjoyed the experience. This led to 3 separate discussions with 3 different premies.

One of them surprisingly told me that she had actually been inactive for over 10 years although recently she had been attending programs again. I had not known that as I really hadn't discussed knowledge and Mr Rawat with my "premie" friends much in the last 15 years. She was aware of some of the sexual exploits of Mr. Rawat and added another mindblowing one to the list of which she had very credible knowledge. We discussed this in length as I found it to be unconscionable. She agreed with me as to the grievious nature of the offense. Someone in this forum said the first step of breaking free is having that first critical thought of the cult leader. This has certainly happened for her and we will see how it goes. The fund raising bothers her as well and she stated she no longer gives any money to any of Mr. Rawat's organizations. This particular individual has been involved since the early 70's and has many ex premie friends with whom she socializes including an ex instructor. Her sister is an industrial strength church lady type premie (I love that term). I know her very well myself and like her very much as a kind loving human being.

The next premie cautioned me that Mr. Rawat had warned us that the techniques would not work without him. I informed this premie that my meditation experience was totally unchanged and seemed to have no connection to Mr. Rawat at all. I have to admit, I had been very concerned about this upon flopping out of the boat. However, reading on this site about the common availability of these techniques had removed the delusion that the meditation experience was somehow "courtesy of the master". As an aside, that is now another issue that I have with Mr. Rawat. He fraudulently claimed intellectual property rights on something that existed in the public domain and used it solely for his own personal enrichment while laying guilt trips on his students about who deserved the credit for any benefits derived from its practice. I intend to keep this premie informed if in fact my meditation practice continues to be enjoyable. If it does not, I will quit practicing it. Like I have said, so far, I haven't noticed anything different. I still enjoy it.

The third premie listened and was totally supportative. I believe that he and his wife still are involved in some ways, but maybe not. Anyway, he volunteered that he no longer thinks of Mr. Rawat in any godlike way, and encouraged me to keep on meditating. He is also aware of the G650 and I believe that he also wonders about its neccessity. We agreed to remain friends and went on to discuss numerous other things in which we both share interests.

Another old time premie couple may also be wavering based on indirect comments made during a recent brief encounter. They invited me over for dinner and discussion recently, and I intend to go this week if possible.

I still have not had discussions about flopping out of the boat with one of my dear friends and golfing buddy, Charanand. I have dodged his calls so far, as I know he will be heartbroken. There is no doubt in my mind that he is totally convinced of Mr. Rawat's divinity as I was myself until very recently. I intend to speak to him today or in the next couple days. I am not looking forward to it. Obviously, he is not one of those that may be wavering.

There are others that I suspect are wavering and I will update as I get more feedback if you would like.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch

9th October 2011 - Re: Isn't a Gulfstream 650 out of Rawat's financial reach?

In an earlier post, I mentioned that I felt that the financial pressure being put on the premies to contribute to the G650 could lead to more premies leaving.

General Dynamics. who now owns Gulfstream, requires a series of payments at certain milestones even before delivery of the aircraft. These are quite large and I would expect at least one and possibly 2 of these payments have already or are about to come due. They are I believe, non-refundable.

Prior aircraft were financed in part by donations, in part by private loans from wealthy premies, and in part by equity loans from commercial sources. I would expect the current aircraft to be financed the same way.

My information may be wrong, but i believe the current cost of a new G650 is north of 65 Million dollars. Unless the wealthy premies come to the rescue, I think this could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

9th October 2011 - Re: Rawat is only a humanitarian, ambassador of peace — nudge nudge wink wink

Most long time premies believe that Mr. Rawat is the current incarnation or some such thing. He is never referred to at Major Donor meetings as Prem Rawat or Mr. Rawat. He is referred to as Maharaj Ji or "the Boss". I know this because I believed it myself until very recently.

While we all knew that the current presentation as Mr. Rawat humanitarian leader was being propagated to the public, we didn't pay much attention to that spin. After all, couldn't Clark Kent have a secret identity and morph into superman? Couldn't Bruce Wayne become Batman? What was the harm in this?

There probably are some premies with more contact with Mr. Rawat in everyday social situations that don't believe this, but most of the ones left never accepted the transformation as Mr. Rawat never really accepted it himself. I remember a recent program where he was discussing his grandson Jivan looking at an image of Shri Hans and acting like he recognized him. Mr. Rawat then stated that if he had recognized him, he should have pranammed to the picture.

There go those crazy Indian mahatmas confusing us again. Oh wait, that was Prem Rawat himself saying that just this year, or last at the earliest.

9th October 2011 - Re: The luxury Gulfstream 650 jet

There could be some sibling rivalry at play here too, as Bhole Ji is now flying the Bombardier Global 5000, a very nice long range large body executive aircraft.

Swimming Free aka Roger Koch

12th October 2011 - Major Donor Insight

In an earlier post, one of the posters wondered what the $2 Million dollars being raised for WOPG was really for. If I remember right, the poster was in the production field and knew the cost of producing things like the 3 part documentary on the life of Mr. Rawat which the $2 Million was supposed to produce. I wonder about this more than most at this point since little more than a year ago I donated over $5.5 Million for this same purpose.

Mr. Rawat told me personally in a face to face meeting after thanking me for the donation, that he hoped that the premies didn't waste it. Apparantly, they have in little more than a year. He must be furious. I am sure heads will roll when he finds out the Premies have wasted it and the money is gone and they have to raise more to carry out the plan.

12th October 2011 - Re: Point of Clarification?

No, Joe I was not satirical about the $5.5 Million. At this point in time, I wish I had supported a different cause with it. However at that point in time, I believed that supporting WOPG was a very noble cause. I no longer do.

The rest was intended to be satire. I did get a good laugh from ocker's sharp wit though the comments aimed at itslueth seemed unneccessarily harsh.

12th October 2011 - Re: Point of Clarification?YOWSER!

La-ex I will try to answer your questions below in order.

First, yes I made a $5.5 Million dollar donation to WOPG which is a Rawat organization.

2nd That was not a major portion of my savings but it was a significant donation. Others have noted below that their donations of everything they had in the ashram and in other situations may have actually been greater. I agree, since I am still fine financially.

As far as how the meeting went, it lasted for about 45 minutes and I don't feel like rehashing it right now. It was a pleasant meeting. I think it is still too early for me to say how I feel about it now, but at some point if I feel I can talk about it clearly I will. I hope that will satisfy you for now.

The donation increased my stature greatly in the organization. Especially after Mr. Rawat publicly praised me for my courage and generosity. I had the best seats and at the last TPRF event in Malibu, 3 of Mr. Rawat's children introduced themselves to me and chatted for a while at my table. As an aside, I thought they were nice kids, adults now really. My inner experience did not change. It has always been good by my estimation, and still is, but that may be because I modified the techniques long ago to something that worked much better for me.

You are certainly right that the money could have been so much better spent. I address that in more detail in another part of this thread.

The reason I decided to post this information is to show how powerful of a grip a cult like this can have even on an educated, intelligent and successful person like myself.

12th October 2011 - Re: How Many Major Donations are there?

Ocker, I also feel it is a shame that I didn't decide to make that donation next year. It was circumstance really. The maturity of a charitable trust that I had created years ago. Fortunately, an equal amount went to better causes not connected to Mr. Rawat.

I did however receive something of value for this contribution. Before this contribution, I was a back row premie flying under the radar. I was not even a major donor though I had given significantly through various trusts and in other situations, but always anonymously because I really didn't want the attention. My girlfriend, whom I have referred to in previous posts, often wondered why we always got the Rosa Parks Seats. She was an aspirant at the time and was still up until I jumped off the boat.

Anyway, after I made that donation, my status improved dramatically with front row seats at all the programs. My girlfriend usually got one as well. I enjoyed the nice seats as I was a devoted practicing premie. But….., I didn't think money should buy a good seat, but I sat in it anyway. And I think this may have been the start of my swim to freedom. A very steep price to pay.

I think we all could think of so many better things this money could have been spent on. There is so much suffering in the world. If I make another donation to another charity again in my life, I can tell you that it will be a wiser decision. Joe, I am not going to slit my wrists, but I know one of these nights I am going to cry myself to sleep when the full impact of what happened this last 40 years finally hits me.

12th October 2011 - Re: Crying oneself to sleep

I will not cry for the money, lexy. I was born and raised poor and spent most of my life that way. Your donation was certainly greater than mine, because fortunately for me I did not give everything when it came to money. But like you, I gave my heart. It is my heart that will make me cry, not my wallet.

12th October 2011 - Re: WOW! This is an OMG thread - thanks for the honesty

Karen, no I did not give Mr. Rawat all my money.

Finding out about Mr. Rawat's sexual conquest of a premie that I had known many years ago was certainly one of the first big drips as they say in the forum. Reading the list of items that pertain to belonging to a cult and having to check them all was another. Facing the revisionism discussion was another. There were more. I think I mentioned some in my earlier posts.

Interestingly, I was having a conversation with a premie friend today when the subject of Mr. Rawat's affairs came up. His response was, "everybody has known that for years. M has a hyperactive libido." He asked if I knew Michael Donner. He said he had been M's pimp. I said I didn't know, and he said my problem was that I was "too devotional a premie and now I was having a slingshot effect." He suggested that I just keep quiet and not tell anyone how I felt.

He and his wife are dear friends that go back to the DECA days. I am going to have dinner with them soon and I am sure this Topic will come up again.

14th October 2011 - Re: Swimming Free's Golfing Buddy Mahatma

Just wondering. Is this golfing buddy thing with the former Mahatma Gurucharanand a long term relationship or only since you became a major major major donor?

it began after my major donation

18th October 2011 - Re: International Tours & Major Donors

I believe the correct spelling is Pryan, but I may be wrong.

2nd November 2011 - Re: When you blame others you give away your power

I think what everyone is really trying to say is that we have to take responsibility for our healing. If we wait for our abusers to help us we may be waiting a long time.

2nd November 2011 - WSJ did a 2nd, "follow up" article on Rawat!!!Anytime, SF!

I certainly did know them. I haven't seen Mike since the DECA days. I did read his journey, and it sounds like he is doing well.

Ritchie is here in Miami and doing well. I saw him and his lovely wife Susan most recently at my 60th birthday party in June. I run into his daughter every once in a while. She is a very bright and sweet girl and is married to a nice Italian man. It is always good to see them. They are still very active premies to the best of my knowledge.

2nd November 2011 - How I became a cult member

As a young child, I was raised Lutheran in the midwestern US. My parents and grandparents, aunts, and uncles, cousins etc. were poor farmers and religious as was I. I was taught early on that the triumvirate, God the father, son, and Holy Ghost was the source of my salvation. I did not choose this belief system. I was born into it, I was taught it by people I loved and respected, and I believed it explicitly.

Early in life I was taught to believe that God took a human body (Jesus) 2000 years ago. I remember wishing as a child that I had been born in that time so that I could have been with him. I was sure that I would never have betrayed him and led to his crucifixtion for which I felt somehow responsible.

Somehow, over the years of my juvenile life, I became disaffected with my religion, but not my belief in God, so when I heard from my fiance's brother at the tender age of 20, that God had once again taken a human body and was walking the earth, I was not sarcastic or disbelieving. After all, if it had happened once 2000 years ago, there was no logical reason it couldn't happen again. My opportunity was staring me in the face. I would not fail the Lord in human body again as those people had done so long ago. Besides, I loved rock music and the Beatles and they had a Guru, and meditation was very interesting and I had even read Jonathon Livingston Seagull, a short little book about a very realized bird.

Was I told that an inspirational speaker with a message of peace was coming to the US and that I could have inner Peace? No. I was told by Guru Maharaj Ji himself (now known as Mr. Rawat) that he had come with more power than ever before. He stated that God was always present in a human body. He stated that he could show me God face to face. It was also printed in his magazines. How could I refuse? I didn't. In my youthful innocence, I received knowledge as he called it then and began my path to enlightenment. But before I showed up for the knowledge session, I got down on my knees and prayed to God to help me if I was making a mistake. I have been wondering lately if that simple act somehow saved me much later in my life.

After receiving knowledge, I meditated with a fervor that I had never applied to anything else including my pre-medical studies. If it was possible to become enlightened, I was going to do it. I would not fail from lack of effort.

Of course, I had to change the techniques in order to meditate as much as I did. My arms just became too tired from the positions of the techniques I was taught by the Mahatma who I have been told was just a vehicle for Maharaj Ji. By the way, was that a dreaded "concept"? And my eyes were not liking the light technique. So I just watched the light without the technique, listened to the music without the music technique, followed my breath, and pretty much gave up on the nectar technique as worthless for me. The experience was there, it just needed my attention. So I meditated and enjoyed it immensely for many years. In fact, I still do it and enjoy it immensly to this day. Considering that I am posting here, I doubt the experience I am having is "by his grace".

I remember Guru Maharaj Ji saying that we were not accepting him, we were just accepting his Knowledge. Somewhere that changed. Somewhere it became his grace that was responsible for everything positive in life. Somewhere it became neccessary to kiss his feet as an integral part of this process. Somewhere it became neccessary to give more and more money to help him fulfill his mission of spreading knowledge to the whole world. Somewhere it became neccessary to surrender my life to Maharaj Ji. And if I didn't, there was all hell to pay. I guess hell always shows up in religions. Fear of pain is always more effective than a promise of pleasure, and Mr. Rawat i.e. Maharaj Ji, M, The Boss, The Lord of the Universe, etc. was not above a little threat here and there if he felt it neccessary.

Well, suffice it to say that my devotion was not well received by all. My brother and little sister received knowledge based upon my encouragement, but being more wise than I gave it up quite early. My dear late brother even went to see the Wizard of Oz at a program in Miami, excuse me the Maharaj Ji, but declared him a fraud and became a Baptist instead. The rest of my family agreed not to disown me if I never brought the subject up again. I loved them and they loved me so we had a truce for almost 40 years. My former fiance and first wife was not so understanding and eventually gave me an ultimatum to either leave the Guru or she and our son would be leaving me. Of course, I chose the Guru, and we divorced. It was clear to me that difficulties will come, but I now owed all allegiance to Maharaj Ji. How can a lover of truth ever abandon the Lord for mere mortals?

Now of course this was probably my confusion. I am sure that If given the chance, Mr. Rawat would have chastised both me and all those Indian Mahatmas for this confusion and disrespect for family. And probably there are others that he could blame. Perhaps it was the national coordinator, the community coordinator, or maybe even the tiger goddess Durga Ji whom he married who were to blame. Any time you marry a tiger goddess you are likely to run into some sort of trouble. Since Maharaj Ji referred to her as our Mother at the time, I should have spoken to her about my problems with my wife, but somehow I don't think she would have even spoken to me, her own son.

Anyway, this is all obviously irrelevent because today Mr. Rawat has lost all his powers and no longer has all 64 of his powers and is now only an inspirational speaker talking about peace and golf and raising money for bases(houses), cameras, and airplanes. I guess this is sort of like what happened to Superman when what's his name exposed him to Kryptonite, except I don't remember Superman groveling for money.

Flopping out of the boat is sort of a shame really. For a short time, I really enjoyed the illusion of being the Lord's right hand man. But I must look at the bright side, my loss is someone else's gain. My front row seat is empty. Hopefully one day all will be swimming free and there will be nobody there to claim it.

2nd November 2011 - Re: How I became a cult member

Dear Wolfie,

In response to how I made a $5.5 Million donation without upsetting my family: It is simple, I never told them and probably never will.

In response to how I made the money in the first place: That was partially covered in an earlier thread called new to the forum about a month ago. The part that wasn't covered has four easy techniques which i will teach you for free so long as you give me all your….. oops wait, I have to go take my medication. The delusions of granduer that come with the manic phase of my bipolar disorder are starting to kick in.

Aaah, that's better. Now back to the subject, I will be giving a motivational speech in the coming years, probably at the United Nations in conjunction with my plan to bring peace to the world through my prosperity. Hmmm… I just reread this last sentence. I better wait a little longer for the meds to kick in.

Seriously, all the best to you Wolfie. I am sure there are so many similarities in all of our stories, including those premies who have not yet had the good fortune to jump off the boat …… yet.

3rd November 2011 - Re: How I became a cult member

Thanks for the suggestion PatW. I think I will start working on a journey entry one of these days. I probably should not put off until tomorrow what I can do today. But …. I just can't resist breaking that commandment from my knowledge session.

It is amazing how similar the paths of premies have been. I think that is what makes this forum so valuable to premies preparing to jump off the boat and to recent exes like me.

3rd November 2011 - Re: What a fantastic post.

Go Hawks. I am a little worried that the Hawks are in for a rough time this weekend against Michigan. Their defense is a little soft this year. The Spartans have played well except last week against the Huskers. Good luck to them except when they play Iowa.

I am glad that you enjoyed the post Bob, and hope it may help others wondering how they got caught. I am sure it was so similar for all of us at that time.

I myself am not really sad about any of this at this time. I just returned from a nice 2 week vacation with family and friends in Iowa and had a great time. Gathered hickory nuts from an old secret spot and my mother made a batch of the best hickory nut cookies on the planet. Better than nectar.

Give my best to Flying Solo.

3rd November 2011 - Re: How I became a cult member

Hi Marianne. Glad you enjoyed the post. I always enjoy a good laugh, but am sometimes concerned that people will not get my attempts at humor.

As I stated above, I am doing well after having just returned from a nice vacation with my family in Iowa. I had a great night drinking beer and singing karaoke with family and old friends at a country bar in Iowa among other things.

In response to your question about my reception in premie quarters these days, I would have to say it is pretty normal for now. Very few premies bring it up, and I don't think I am being shunned yet. My closest premie friends in Miami are very supportative. I think premies are used to people leaving actually, which is to be expected since many if not most of their premie friends dropped out long before me.

7th November 2011 - Re: How I became a cult member

Thanks for the question Protoss. I have thought about this quite a bit lately.

First let me say that I am totally on my own at this point with regards to both meditation and prayer. I prefer it this way with nobody between me and God. I still believe in God but respect those who do not. One of my sons is an avowed atheist and makes some very good points in friendly arguments with me.

In response to thinking about the one who showed me the techniques (Mahatma Parlokanand at the behest of Maharaj Ji): It is like when I buy something and make change for a dollar, I do it without even thinking of my grade school teacher(s) that taught me this skill. I am grateful to them when I stop to think about it, but not overly so, nor do they expect me to be. If I had to stop and acknowledge each teacher that I have had before I proceeded with using what they helped me to learn, I think that I would be mentally paralyzed.

On my recent trip to Iowa, I ran into my 7th and 8th grade English teacher at the same assisted living facility in which my father is now living. She is now 94 and in pretty good health for her age. We had a couple good conversations and I thanked her for all she had done for me as she was a very good teacher. She was thrilled about this and that I had taken the time to speak to her and thank her. It was a beautiful experience for both of us.

Contrast this with Rawatism or MaharajJiism where never ending gratitude coupled with never ending financial contributions are the expected norm.

By the way, my old english teacher reached out and held my hand while she spoke to me and I to her. She was not afraid of my germs, nor I hers.

8th November 2011 - Jagdeo/Elan Vital --- Sandusky/Penn State Paterno comparisons

I am not personally familiar with the Jagdeo case facts, but are there any forum readers that could comment on the bizarre similarities between the current Penn State Paterno child sex scandal dominating the US media, and the Jagdeo case? Did anyone ever report the Jagdeo case to the police?

9th November 2011 - Re: Jagdeo was reported to the police in the UK.

Congratulations on your having the courage to report him to the police AJW. Does anyone know if Jagdeo is still alive and if so how old he is and if he could still be a danger to children in India?

9th November 2011 - Re: Jagdeo/Elan Vital --- Sandusky/Penn State Paterno comparisons

Kelly, were these victims of Jagdeo that you mentioned molested in the US or in Britain, or both? Thanks in advance for your reply.

9th November 2011 - Re: I see similarities, sure.

First, Thanks for the excellent post Joe.

Second, I could be wrong, but I think that the vast majority of current premies have never heard of the Jagdeo incident. At least I know that I had not heard anything about it until I first visited this site a little over a month ago. I don't think a very high proportion of current premies have ever visited this site, and if they have, I don't think that they discuss it and the things they read with other premies.

10th November 2011 - Re: Jagdeo/Elan Vital --- in the US at Unity School….

It is said that with authority comes responsibility.

In the Paterno/ Penn State scandal, it is clear that Paterno did not fulfill his moral responsibilities in this instance because he failed to report the instances of sexual child abuse perpetrated by his defensive coordinator to the proper outside legal authorities. It was a failure so greivious that it overshadowed a life of tremendous accomplishments. The board of trustees and the court of public opinion have spoken to the extent that Mr. Paterno's distinguished career was abruptly and rightly ended even though the alleged actions happened many years ago. I believe that there is no statute of limitations on child abuse, but do not know this for sure. In this case there was an independent body of trustees that were able to review Mr. Paterno's behavior and they fired him and the University president, who was at least equally as guilty, as well.

In the Jagdeo case, based upon what has been said here in the forum and what has been posted in the archives, it appears that there was a very similar failure to act responsibly by the Elan Vital authorities all the way to the top, being Mr. Rawat. Unfortunately since this is a cult there are no independently elected or appointed trustees who could hold Mr. Rawat accountable for his failure to act responsibly in this case. I think that Mr. Rawat had a duty to report Jagdeo's behavior to the proper outside legal authorities, and it appears that he has failed to do so to date. Similarly, I believe that the premies in the chain of command leading from those who first had knowledge of the Jagdeo abuse all the way up to Mr. Rawat had a moral responsibility to report it to the police as well. Now that I am out from under the sway of the cult I can say this, but a couple months ago knowledge of this situation would possibly have effected me differently. Perhaps it is in a way irrelevent now since it appears that Jagdeo has died.

Nobody will probably ever know how many additional children suffered at the hands of Jagdeo due to this lack of accepting responsibility and failure to take proper action by Mr. Rawat. I think that the Paterno case illustrates just how greivious these types of failures actually are. Let us all pray (those who believe in a higher power)for the victims in both of these cases and in all the other child abuse cases as well.

Let us hope that Mr. Rawat learned from this and will not suffer similar lapses of moral judgement in the future. However, since Mr. Rawat does not allow criticism of himself and his behavior, I doubt that he has learned anything. Especially since this type of lapse of moral judgement is also demonstrated by his reported serial sexual conquests of his female followers.

Fortunately, I don't think there are many children left around in the movement. I don't recall seeing a young person around at programs in years. At least that is a good thing.

11th November 2011 - Re: Jagdeo/Elan Vital --- in the US at Unity School….

I still have a little fear Lakeshore. Who can forget the nearly fatal Fakiranand attack on the reporter who threw the pie in Mr. Rawat's face.

11th November 2011 - Re: Rawat Does Not Solicit Gifts

Hi Marianne.

First let me say that I never visited the Elan Vital Website before using your link to take a look at the referenced FAQ's. I was just not interested in what was being said. My focus was on meditation and going to programs where Mr. Rawat was speaking.

Regarding funds solicitation, The system is not set up for Mr. Rawat to lead in the funds solicitation effort although he participates in the major meetings. This activity is very ably led by Barbara Brogan whom some in the forum have dissed at times. I personally like Barbara and have great sympathy for her lot in life being stuck raising money for all the various Rawat entities. It is a hopeless task that she will never be able to complete successfully since there is no limit to Mr. Rawat's material desires.

She is very sincere in her efforts to raise money for Mr. Rawat and does so out of devotion to him. Her husband Sean does his best to help her and speaks about various darshan stories to help inspire the premies.

She is also assisted by Alvaro Pascotto and his wife Linda who heads up TPRF. Alvaro is a very intelligent man whom I have spoken to many times and is a very talented attorney. He handles most business transactions for Mr. Rawat. However lately in these fund raisers he has been unable to express any intelligent thoughts and just starts crying and muttering something unintelligible about Maharaj Ji. If I was in his shoes, I am sure I could do no better. It is a safe way to express oneself without fear of criticism or reprisal. This is how all the devotional stuff escalated in my opinion. Since Mr. Rawat lost total faith in his students to talk about their experience of knowledge long ago and basically muzzled us, premies just resorted to saying something flattering about Mr. Rawat if they found themselves in need of opening their mouths at all, especially in his presence. This has resulted in many idiotic presentations which remind me of Sadam Hussien's famous Information Minister who persisted in making delusional speeches that flew in the face of reality right up until the fall of Baghdad.

Linda expresses herself well and does a good job representing TPRF. Charanand is the leader in the TPRF golf tournament fundraising game. He excells at it and is a pretty good golfer too. Mr. Rawat seems to have no interest in golf. Too bad, it is a very humbling game.

There is a revolving cast of other support members of which I have been one for a short time until recently I guess. Fortunately other than making a few inane comments, I did not distinguish myself with my oratory skills or lack thereof.

Mr. Rawat's involvement is behind the scenes except at major donor conferences where he often makes an appearance just before the plate is passed so to speak, and speaks about all the new things going on and the need for money. Mr. Rawat's last words to us at the last Major Donor Conference in California preceeding the 40th anniversary event were "be generous". We were. I believe that $1.8 Million was the figure reported to be raised. The proceeds of this effort were for Priyan. We were informed that Mr. Rawat was happy with our fundraising efforts. I don't recall him being concerned about our efforts to experience knowledge. I don't recall anything along that line being mentioned ever in a fund raising meeting, but then it is a fund raising meeting.

He did not show up at the post anniversary event TPRF golf tournament fundraiser held a few miles from his house, for which a paltry $100,000 was raised for some relief effort or the other. It may have been Japanese Tsunami relief, I forget. I have participated in many non premie charitable golf tournaments over the years, and only one other time did the charity head not appear at least briefly. In that case we found out that the sponsor had gotten drunk and missed his own tournament. This could have been the case here as well.

Situations are created to create a lot of peer pressure to donate and to make it a team effort. It works very well for fund raising. Premies are generally kind and generous people. Mr. Rawat could have accomplished a lot of good if he had funnelled this energy into something other than his own self gratification.

No matter what is said on any web site, the premies that are attending these major donor meetings believe in Mr. Rawat's divinity, and he does nothing to discourage that belief. That is why they are happy to make incredible financial sacrifices to try to fulfill his every wish. He accommodates them occasional by allowing them to kiss his feet at foreign events they attend.

Hopefully this answers your question Marianne.

11th November 2011 - Re: Rawat Does Not Solicit Gifts

Last night at dinner with my youngest son who once went with me to a public event where Mr. Rawat spoke, the discussion turned to the current strain in my relationship with a premie friend. I explained to him that I had left the Guru movement and this was creating the strain. He said to me and I quote "It is a cult, isn't it Dad?" As embarassed as I was, I said "yes Wyatt, it is." He looked at me unjudgementally and the conversation turned to other matters.

Lakeshore, as former cult members all we can have is compassion for those still under its sway, even the leaders. The mental gymnastics that go on that allow cult members to participate in and become complicit in obvious lies and misleading initiatives are one of the most insidious and self destructive aspects of a cult.

I appreciate your postings here so much as you have been very helpful as I broke away from the cult. Thank you so much again, and thanks again to all the other forum posters.

11th November 2011 - Re: Isn't the Internet Archive Fabulous?

Joe, I probably did close myself off. But also, I remember getting emails like little newsletters written by Mitch Ditkoff and others who I didn't know, and they seemed like such useless drivel that I didn't feel compelled to read more, so I didn't. I just sent them to my spam folder for later deletion. Remember, it was the feeling…. the experience….not what was said that was important in the cult. So I didn't make any effort to go to websites that I felt probably contained more of the same. I just focused on my own inner experience. What does that have to do with websites and the internet. And for sure, leave no room for doubt in your mind, so why go looking for trouble?

12th November 2011 - Re: Do you think you were typical?

Joe, I don't really know if I was typical with respect to my lack of exposure to these issues. Maybe not, but I bet there is a pretty big group that are in this category.

13th November 2011 - Re: WOW! How telling

Just a little cautious fear Karen, not a lot.

28th November 2011 - Re: How can we ever forgive ourselves?

It will be hard for him to come back and claim to be Lord of the Multiverse. My girlfriend has already trademarked "Lordess of the Multiverse", and I know that she will not take kindly to imposters.

2nd December 2011 - Re: How can we ever forgive ourselves?

Hi Bob. Sorry I missed your above post and didn't reply sooner. Interestingly my girlfriend confessed the other night that she watched all 70 hours of the keys, but couldn't figure out what Mr.Rawat was talking about. She sent in a 50 dollar donation and was going to proceed with key 6 but the demand for committment scared her off since she couldn't make sense of what he was talking about. She decided she must have missed something so she was starting to watch them again when I exed. When I started opening up about all the old Lord of the Universe stuff, she was astounded. I am sure she wondered why I didn't tell her about it, and I am not totally sure why myself. I think it probably had to do with Maharaj Ji saying to not talk to aspirants and just point them to videos. Fortunately she smelled the rat and never received knowledge after several years as an aspirant and attending several programs. I am relieved that she escaped. She doesn't seem to be suffering from the 70 hours thankfully. I do believe she sees it as a huge waste of her time though.

30th November 2011 - The beginning of Mr. Rawat's Career

One night this last year before I exed, I was having a nice dinner at Charanand's apartment in Miami. His cooking is exquisite. I brought the wine and cognac. We were joined by 2 of his close friends for this evening. We may or may not have golfed earlier in the day, I don't really recall.

After dinner, talk turned to things spiritual. I noticed a picture of a much younger Charanand together with a very young Maharaj Ji displayed prominently on a shelf. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that Bihari Singh and Sampuranand were also in the picture. I asked Charanand about this picture and he explained that it was from the coronation of Maharaj Ji as the Perfect Master.

He told the eye witness story as follows: After the death of Shri Hans there was much sadness. Many of the Indian premies were gathered in the area. There was a big debate going on behind the scenes as to who would carry on as the new perfect master. There were Mahatmas who wanted to take over, Mata Ji wanted to take over, and Bal Bagwan Ji wanted to take over. None of this was to be though. While all these meetings were going on, the three of them, Charanand, Bihari, and Sampuranand put little Prem on a chair in front of the premies. The premies went wild with joy at seeing him, so Charanand put the tikak on his forehead, and Sampuranand put the crown of Krishna on his head. They gave him a microphone and he spoke. The crowd went wild and accepted this as his being the new perfect master.

Mata Ji, Bal Bagwan Ji, and the mahatmas came to see what all the rukus was. When they arrived, it was apparant that their prior discussions were no longer relevent. The premies gathered had accepted little Prem as the new perfect master. He had stolen the show right out from under them.

This upset both Mata Ji and Bal Bagwan Ji. This had never been in their plans and little Prem had never been in the seccession discussions. However, it was too late to change what had happened, and an uneasy truce was gained and little Prem was allowed to continue as the Perfect Master. Thus the stage was set.

If my memory serves me correctly, little Prem was about 8 at this time.

I bring this up because I have a little grand nephew that was a little undersized but who imagined himself as being strong. This concept was fed by myself as I felt it was hilarious, so I named him little hercules. As he got older he became more impressed with his own strength and changed his name to big hercules, and finally to the amazing hercules. At family gatherings we would feed his delusions by arm wrestling him and letting him win. One time after one of these dramatic and playful sessions, his little girl cousin was irked by his victorious celebrations and challenged him to a grand championship. He was about 8 yrs old at the time. Having already disposed of all other adult challengers, he confidently accepted the challenge. His little cousin was a little bigger maybe, but certainly determined to put an end to this charade. She defeated him handily. The look of utter surprise on his face was priceless. After the shock wore off, he went about being a little boy, but never again did the amazing Hercules make an appearance. I often wonder how long my little grand nephew would have believed in his own superpowers if this had not happened.

I think that little Prem believed in his superpowers until he was well into his adult years. Who would have been allowed to challenge him? He must be doubting them now though as more and more of us challenge his self appointed authority.

With the revisionism now rampant in the organization, the above account must be embarassing. But consider the problem being that the Indian Mahatmas spread such confusion.

Talk later turned to the topic of royal families. Charanand expressed his opinion that the Rawat family is a royal family. Perhaps this is why knowledge spread more in England than in France where they don't treat their royals so benevolently.

30th November 2011 - Re: So Charanand and Bihari Singh created this fake Messiah?

Sorry, I think it was Sampuranand who put the crown on. I corrected it above.

In answer to your question, I don't know. But how about this as an extension of early Maharaj Jiism "God is great, but greater is Guru because he can show you God, But greater is Charanand because he can make you Guru"

30th November 2011 - no mention of the old man there….

Hi Bill. Yes I have heard the other version as well about the letter and all even from Mr. Rawat, but I think that the version Charanand gave that night was the real truth. The other one is a version of legitamacy. This version is not so much. It is just one of a situation taking on a life of its own. We had a good laugh at the story that night, what with the decision makers being thwarted and all.

30th November 2011 - Re: no mention of the old man there….

Hi Leslie. Well, I can't say that I am not gullible, since I proved that beyond a doubt I am for almost 40 years, but I think that this may actually be the true version. Of course then again maybe not.

I am just modifiying my post after looking through the archives and finding the topic discussed in the Bob Mishler Radio interview posted on this site. He basically says the same story as Charanand told that night. He doesn't mention Charanand in the interview, but he does mention Sampuranand.

30th November - Re: The beginning of Mr. Rawat's Career

Hi Wolfie. You are right about the english speaking bit. I was just throwing in a little sarcasm about royalty and the French having seemed to have had their fill a couple hundred years ago. I find the idea of royalty insulting to my own human dignity, but the Brits still seem to tolerate it.

Re spiritual conversations with Charanand: Charanand was particularly interested in the writings of Vivikananda who came to america to adress some spiritual congress in Chicago in the 1800's I believe. He loved to have someone read to him from his Vivikananda book.

30th November - Re: I'm having a hard time getting my head around this

Charanand just believes like any good premie that he was blessed and fortunate to recognize so easily the new incarnation. At the time, I felt that he was too. As for my role in "hucking it up with him", I liked him and had just finished a good meal washed down by a nice merlot and finished off with a cognac. I have a tendency to laugh at lots of stuff. Give me good food, wine, and wash it down with some good cognac and I become a hucking fool premie or expremie that I was or am.

1st December 2011 - Re: no mention of the old man there….

Hi Lesley, sorry about the name mix up. I agree that Sampu was probably a more influential player now that you mention it and that I have read more about it.

1st December - Re: Sincerity and responsibility

Hi Mike. I really appreciate your well thought out posts. I have read some of what you have wrote on this website and find it very insightful. I have not read your book yet, but I intend to at some point. All the best.

By the way, I agree with you that the three crowners were probably in group no 1. I do think about whether now the inner circle are still group no 1 or not. I can think of points to both possibilities. For their sake, I hope it is no. 1, as I agree with you that no 2 is worse.

I can come to no other conclusion than that Mr. Rawat is in group 2 since he obviously has known all along, or at least since he grew up, that he is not the lord, unless of course he suffers from some severe mental illness.

1st December - Re: Note to SW…

Charanand has not been warm and friendly to me since I exed. I doubt that my mentioning him and our past conversations on this forum will do anything to reconcile that. I did sincerely like him though, and wish him the best in his old age. That said, thanks for the heads up Lakeshore.

1st December - Re: What does Charanand do with his time?

Hi Joe. Well, besides golf, as I have stated above, he is a very good cook and prepares very nice meals every evening that he shares with friends that he has made over the years in premie circles. He is said to "practice" 1 hour a day and I expect this to be true. He is very fit and practices yoga regularly I am told.

He travels all over the world to programs and tprf golf tournaments although tprf is seldom the direct sponsor of these events. The golf fundraisers pay for his travel. His premie friends around the world feel honored to provide shelter for him in their homes when he visits their city.

He has never personally asked me to buy anything for him, although I have picked up greens fees for a few rounds of golf. At times he insisted on paying, but only on affordable courses. This is normal protocal for all my friends, premie and non premie.

During the winter, he lives in a modest apartment in Miami provided rent free by an ex-premie friend of mine who still has a lot of respect for him. The friend bought the condo during the housing boom and doesn't want to sell it so he lets Charanand stay there. He has a very modest income from somewhere perhaps social security. One of the local Miami premies helps him manage his financial affairs and travel logistics.

I do not know him to be presently romantically involved with anyone.

As for your other question relating to his alleged past sexual activities, I am more of a gentleman that to ask anyone a question like that let alone one of my prior friends, so regardless of how unpopular an answer that may be, it is my final answer.

1st December - Re: What does Charanand do with his time?

I don't know the source of his income. I was just speculating on social security. Perhaps he gets a pension from words of peace. Whatever it is, it isn't much as he has to watch his expenses closely.

2nd December - Re: Is Charanand a US Citizen?

Hi Joe. For some reason I think that Charanand is a US citizen, but I could be wrong.

The local premies get together and informally sponsor the tprf golf tournaments since there is apparantly some obstacle to tprf doing it directly, although I was told that the last one I attended last fall in Malibu was tprf sponsored.

The die hard tprf golf fundraising premies have tried to renew their focus by soliciting non premie sponsors, since they recognize that premies are generally stretched thin financially. This has not worked well to my knowlege as the vast majority of funds are still raised from the premies who attend the golf event and after dinner event.

By the way, has ex-premie.org ever considered sponsoring a hole? Sponsors get a nice sign in the tee box area to promote their business.]

2nd December - Re: Shri Hans' Death

He did mention it a little bit, but I can't recall the details other than that he said that you don't say that a perfect master dies. You say that a perfect master leaves his body.

2nd December - Re: Shri Hans' Death

I believe that he said that he wasn't there when he died, but that he had died sitting up in perfect meditation.

2nd December - Re: Sampuranand's version on Enjoyinglife.org

Hi JHB. This is interesting. When was this supposed to have been said? It doesn't quite jibe with the other versions on the prior thread. I would agree with other recent posters that Sampuranand seemed much more worldly that Charanand in my contacts with him. This version seems a little contrived to me to present a unified front that I don't really believe was there.

3rd December - Re: Satpal's Version

yes Ocker. Sampuranand died several years ago. Thanks for all the info.

3rd December - Re: I'm confused…but then, I'm used to that….

Hi Karen. I agree with you completely that taking a new look at this is part of deconstructing our brainwashing as you say. It is also very important in light of exposing rampant revisionism in the cult. Remember that Prem now says that it was the early Mahatmas that started all this Indian stuff and that he is now just an inspirational speaker (only in the west, he remains God incarnate in India).

I also learned something from the previous threads. Little Prem believed in ghosts. He spoke about personally seeing and talking to Shri Hans in the aftermath of his fathers death, before accepting his role as Guru Maharaj ji.

Angela, this is of course all bullshit that we were fed. Preposterous bullshit. But as they say, the bigger the lie ….

It is also important to consider the foundation when deconstructing the house of cards. Pull out the right one, and the house comes tumbling down.

It is also important in the sense of understanding that not only is the so called sucession in question, but the very concept of succession, that there is always a perfect master on earth and not just that Maharaj Ji is that current master is in question. As a premie, I believed in this. I no longer do. I now think that the concept of a perfect master, no matter who or when is bullshit. Looking at the information presented in the threads below certainly helped me as a recent ex-premie.

3rd December - Re: Shri Hans's two wives

I think this is the one referred to as Didi Ji, and i think she died recently. But perhaps I am wrong.

3rd December - Re: Swimming Free might be able to shed light on this

Hi Karen. I will try. I am trying to be as objective as possible, but I have to say that all of the PAMS I knew and interacted with struck me as sincere. There were a couple that I considered assholes, but I still felt they were sincere. You have to remember that these people have come under the sway of the cult. When you are in it, it looks totally different from the way it looks when you have been able to get far enough away from it to take a look from a distance. Remember, most of the PAMS are old time premies. I personally know of no recent premies in the PAM system. The old premies have not let go of the the old Maharaj Ji Perfect Master Lord etc. concepts nor are they in any way encouraged to do so by Mr. Rawat. In fact he reinforces it in private. The inspirational speaker bit is just for the public. I have great sympathy for their situation as I only recently exed. I do not like to be critical of them as if they are brave enough to come to this forum, I do not want to scare them away. To me, they are welcome to come and explore and perhaps start the process of leaving. Given enough time, I firmly believe that everyone would eventually leave the cult. Unfortunately we age and some won't make it out. More are leaving every day. PAMS have left before and they will continue to do so. Who knows what it takes in each individual's heart to finally break free. My best wishes are with them.

5th December - Re: TMI

Dear Mr. Rawat,

I sometimes, but not much, wonder if we in this forum should be so hard on you. According to my limited recollection of the scriptures, there has never been a time in recorded history when the "Lord" himself has suffered such a profound demotion.

I can hardly imagine going from being just a little boy, to at the age of 8 becoming the self proclaimed Lord of the Universe with all 64 powers (and actually getting thousands of people to believe you and give you their stuff, and even kiss your feet), and then ending up agreeing to play the role of a 2nd rate inspirational speaker (but still getting people to give you their stuff). It makes the ordinary man like me wonder, "Is this even possible?"

Mr Rawat, I sometimes wonder if you miss dancing around on the stage half naked in front of thousands of screaming, singing half crazed devotees. And what about sitting on a throne wearing a crown and surveying your subjects? I wonder if you miss that too. Maybe not, actually, because you can still do that in India.

How complicated life must be when you have to be "Lord" to the old premies, and just an inspirational speaker to the new ones. And I hope you studied your geography back at St. Joseph's academy because the Lord-Inspirational Speaker transition must get tricky on the way from the West back to India. I am sure it must be important to undergo the correct transition at the exact perfect moment. These are important and interesting space time continuum issues, but I digress.

This is truly a Lila of Biblical Proportions, and one that Mr. Rawat, you yourself must be having a hard time getting your mind around. Especially with us pesky escapees or ex-premies if you prefer, pointing these things out just when you probably thought you might get away with it and have a nice little 2nd career as an inspirational speaker. When I try to imagine myself in your shoes, I too start getting thirsty for something a little stronger than water or tea. Liqour, not the cool aid.

Mr. Rawat, why not come clean, ask the premies for their forgiveness, and retire? It will make life so much easier for you and you will be able, like the rest of us, to experience what it is like to be truly human with all our, and your, imperfections.

And perhaps more importantly it will free up so many premies from their ceaseless fund raising efforts required to support your exhorbitant life style, and allow them to refocus on their long lost desire to be seekers of truth and not just raisers of funds.

You don't have to give me any of my money back. Just plainly tell the remaining premies the truth and let them go. They came to you as seekers of Truth. They deserve better than a lifetime of emotional and financial commitment to an inspirational speaker. Otherwise, I am probably going to keep being a pain in the ass.

yours truly

Swimming Free

P.S. I think some of the other escapees want their money back. I think you could settle with Ocker for the movie rights to your story. He knows it better than anyone else I know and will make sure to do a thorough job. Rumors are he is already talking to Danny Devito.

15th December 2011 - Swimming Free's $5.5 Million donation

I have decided to post a little more about the mechanics of my single $5.5 Million donation. I am doing this in order to clear up some questions regarding this donation about which I have received private inquiries from several disillusioned premies who read this site, but do not post here. I expect there may be others who have not contacted me who have the same questions. So here goes.

Back in early 2010, I had decided to give a portion of a charitable trust that had matured to WOPG. I was in the process of doing this when a major donor fund raiser was being held in Miami. I had already been promoted from the back row to the front by this time as rumours of my impending gift swirled.

While the fundraiser paused for a break to count the pledges, I mentioned to Barbara Brogan that I had done a matching funds donation for a local Miami educational institution and that this had been a very successful mechanism. Barbara and Alvaro Pascotto felt that the use of a portion of the $5.5 Million WOPG gift in this way was a great idea, so a $1 Million matching gift was announced.

I had wanted the matching gift to be anonymous, but a local Miami premie overheard the conversation and when Mr. Rawat asked who the anonymous donor was, that premie gave him my name.

Mr. Rawat took the stage after the conclusion of the fund raising and thanked me, citing my courage and generousity. Being totally under the influence of the cult at this time in my life, I stood up and told Mr. Rawat that it was my honor and privilege to be able to participate in this way. This $1 Million matching funds gift was part of the same total $5.5 Million gift.

This technique had worked so well in Miami that the same strategy was used shortly thereafter in Europe for the European premies. Barbara asked for my permission to do this and I gave it. Once again $1 Million dollars of the $5.5 Million gift was again used as a matching funds fundraising tool.

Since my gift was a tax deductable gift to WOPG, I am not sure how the money was actually used, since the fund raiser might have been for Priyan. The same people collect money from the same group of donors for both causes, so I figured they would work it out. I don't think any of the matching funds money from either of these 2 fund raisers actually went to Priyan because of the tax implications. I expect that it all stayed in wopg and was spent and dispersed to the winds from there. To summarize, there was only one $5.5 Million donation to WOPG, and NOT an additional 2 one Million dollar matching funds donations as well.

I apologize to all who may have donated funds at these two fund raisers as a result of my financial participation in these 2 fund raising events. - Roger

15th December 2011 - Sorry to make you sick Lexy

In a matching funds gift, there is a promise to match whatever funds are raised by the rank and file with a large gift. This is done in many charitable organization fundraising efforts, and the US government even uses matching funds type efforts as do large corporate sponsors.

That type of mechanism was used here. The funds hadn't actually been transferred yet, so the gift could technically be split I suppose any way and be presented as such. However, since it was my intent to donate the money anyway, I do feel that that information should have also been presented to the donors and hence my apology for my part in the fundraising as explained in the above post.

16th December 2011 - Re: What are exes really upset about?

Steve, I think the disillusionment of ex-premies stems from a myriad of sources. Premies have been the victims of a massive fraud that is still on going. You can not expect people to feel good about having given generously of their time, effort, emotional committment, wealth and careers to support a hypocrite who abused the power of his position to gain wealth and apparently even sexual favors from several of his female followers.

Society is built on trust. We trust our doctors, lawyers, teachers, political and religious leaders, police, etc. probably more than we should. However, when one of these individuals in a position of trust abuses that trust, then the individuals harmed have every right to be upset. Those with knowledge of that abuse have a right and possibly even a duty to complain about it and bring this abuse to the attention of others who might fall victim to it. I think that the ex-premies on this forum are not just whining or complaining, they are doing a public service. I applaud them for it. As for me personally, I am not much of a complainer. I have a life as a human being pretty much separate from premie or non premie status at this point. However, I chose to spend a small part of it calling "bullshit" on the perpetrators of this fraud.

Yes Steve, we were deluded, but as been said before in this forum, before we were deluded we were deceived.

16th December 2011 - Re: Rawat updates to Knowledge Lite

Lakeshore, you are spot on. That had to have been the reason. I seem to recall some detached retina lawsuit rumors many years ago.

19th December 2011 - Re: Miami, 31st July, 1982 for Mike Finch

What a sadistic little Lord. His mother had just blown her liberation, and little Prem just about died laughing.

20th December 2011 - Re: Miami, 31st July, 1982 for Mike Finch

So Shri Hans was like the original Rodney Dangerfield. He just couldn't get no respect. I guess that could be funny. But laughing at the Satguru? Perhaps little Prem was not laughing at his mother and was just a monmut laughing at his Guru Maharaj Ji's ridiculous claims to be able to give liberation. And only at the cost of a few coins. Maybe this is the moment that the precious Knowledge first went on sale. And the Perfect Master's own wife said "No Deal". I guess that is pretty funny.

Well, Satguru or not, if I had laughed at my mother or father during one of their arguments, I would have gotten an ass whipping. And from what I have heard, Shri Hans used to love to beat his devotees with a stick. So I think this story must have been a fabrication since Mr Rawat didn't mention his father giving him an ass whipping for this disrespect of either his mother or father, or for that matter his Satguru.

30th December 2011 - Rawat Malibu Mansion Project- Free premie labor galore

The rebuild of the Malibu mansion took years and millions of dollars. In addition, it would not surprise me if the man hours of free premie labor provided there far exceeded that provided at DECA. The aircraft was actually a much smaller and less expensive project by my estimation. I knew several premies that worked at the Malibu Mansion project for years for little or no pay. There must have been hundreds of premies who put in time there. Perhaps Jasper who lived in that area can provide some input.

30th December 2011 - Re: A few details…..

Thanks Jasper. Very insightful. Mr. Rawat seems to have specialized in using people and pushing them to the burn out phase. It is not surprising that the local non premie business community in Malibu has such a low opinion of him.

The non premie aviation community has a similarly low opinion of him. He seems to be totally unaware of this, and thinks that because Gulfstream included him in its sales focus group for the G650 launch, that they somehow view him in a very positive light. He doesn't realize that they were just trying to sell him a plane and take his money. They know how he made his money and consider him an obnoxious fraud according to my old sources at Gulfstream. Of course, to his face….. All good salesmen know this routine.

I ran into a couple ex-premies at a recent Christmas party here in Miami who spoke to me at length of their use and abuse at the hands of Mr. Rawat. One was a former instructor and the other the former head of stage construction at venues all over the US including the Kissimee events. They sought me out as they had heard through the grapevine that I had ex-ed, and we had a great discussion. We all agreed that when it comes to Mr. Rawat, never has someone been given so much and accomplished so little.

30th December 2011 - Re: A few details…..

Jasper, after reading your account, I should have named the original thread " The Malibu Mansion- Free premie Money, Labor, and Materials Galore".

31st December 2011 - Other houses

Well, I know of at least one other large mansion, the one on the property outside Delhi. I was there with Teddy T. back in 1980 or 81 when it was being built. I was in charge of building the Holi gun for a big festival there at the time it was being finished, although I would imagine it has been upgraded since then. This house was designed mostly by the DECA staff, and although it was built in India, it also received financial support through DECA I am sure. Sampuranand was in charge of all money for all projects in India at that time and I met with him several times during that visit, including once after an explosion of the boiler in the new house had killed a premie that was stationed nearby. The premie Indian engineer from DECA who refused to allow anyone to check his work because he is a genious, forgot to put in a mechanical pressure relief valve in case of an electrical failure. Of course, he blamed it on a local contractor.

1st January 2012 - Other houses

Hi Kelly, and Happy New Year. The person that you spoke to about the holi gun was not me. After completing that project, I never returned to India. I don't know who it could have been because Teddy T. and I were the only westerners there during the original Holi gun construction. There were a few westerners working on the new mansion, but it was behind schedule, so I never saw them. I was also put in charge of the program stage construction. All we had to build the holi stage and program stages were bricks. The mortar was very poor because it was rationed and Sampu was pulling in extra ration coupons from premies all over India so we could continue. I was able to buy a big log which I took to a sawmill to cut into floor planks and some structural beams. Sampu gave me Deepok as my assistant, the same Deepok who is now in charge of India. There were Indian engineers who assisted me, and a young Indian premie from DECA was there. I trained him to operate the system for future years. It is still working there the last I heard. Building that system in India was one of my biggest challenges of my professional career. The fact that it all came together and worked made my bones with Mr. Rawat. Teddy T. and I had a great time there though. I see from the forum that Teddy has exed. Good for him. I hope he is well. I always enjoyed his company.

1st January 2012 - Other houses

interesting story kelly. There certainly was a water shortage on the Indian festival site in those days. There were 2 wells on site that could pump about 4 gallons/min each when I was there. We had to build a big brick lined storage pit to hold the water for the holi festival. The Indian premies dug this out by hand and lined it with bricks. The gun used 1000 gal/min, so it took days to pump and store the water in the pit that first year. I don't know if the wells were improved or not, but I assume they were. One lingering memory of the month I spent there is of the dysentary that plagued me and also the suffocating dust. I could write a book about that month, but people would think it was fiction.

I saw Sushil and Deepak in Los Angeles this last fall. I don't know Sushil well, but they both seemed in good health. It is indeed a small world. All the best.

1st January 2012 - Re: Where did prem live while rez was under construction?

Actually, I think the old res. was kept while the new one was being built if I remember correctly. I am sure that Jasper must know. Of course, Mr. Rawat always had plenty of residences to spend time at other than the one in Malibu.

Ocker, was your premie friend that worked on the residence AC named Kenny W. ? He was an Australian engineer that I worked with at DECA on a couple AC projects. He was a great person, but unfortunately I have heard that he has developed a debilitating mental health problem.

2nd January 2012 - Bases

And let us all not forget that no matter how many houses Mr. Rawat has, or how big they are, he still needs more. Instead of calling them houses now, they are called bases.

He explained last year in Miami at a private meeting, why he needs these bases to do his work, and yes to save money. And he also needs these bases to avoid the filth that he encounters in hotel rooms. How could we allow him to stay in rooms with dirty mattresses and blood spatter on the walls that he described. It is just so disgusting. How could we even let a dog stay in a place like that. Bases were needed in Miami and Barcelona for sure, and I believe South America too. And we had the privelege of making a monthly donation to support the one in our community. Of course, this was in addition to Pryan(the plane), WOPG, TPRF, cameras, etc.

He did explain how real estate is a good investment. What he didn't mention is how truly great it is when it is given to you and you don't even need to pay for it. He truly is a great investor living off the proceeds of his investment prowess.

2nd January 2012 - Bases

Yes Cynthia, he certainly is a germ phobic. Never the less, he spoke as if he had actually experienced these items of human filth, which I also doubt.

As disgusted as he is by human filth, it is hard to imagine how he went about sex with all his premie conquests. He must have worn a full body suit condom to keep from being dirtied by the human bodies he was enjoying.